Who's the greatest post Second World War British football manager?

[Nearly Sane]

Currently Ferguson winning by some distance


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52371056

[Outrider]

Between Bobby Robson and Brian Clough for me - Robson succeeded in so many different countries, whereas Clough had the ability to take journeymen and make them into something great.  Ferguson was good, but he had the capacity to buy in the talent he needed, whereas Clough worked primarily with what he already had.

O.

[Aruntraveller]

I wouldn't say I was the best manager in the business. But I was in the top one.

Brian Clough

[Nearly Sane]

Ferguson was breaking up the Old Firm dominance when Clough was buying the first million pound player (that million pounds really needs read in a Dr Evil voice given how out of date it sounds). So I don't think that is as clear as that. I think Notts Forest's 2 European Cups are certainly amongst the most extraordinary achievements of any manager but then so was the Man Utd treble.

I would agree that Robson's ability to manage successfully in that variety of clubs is also exceptional.

Both Busby and Shankly built their clubs into things that allowed managers after them to be hugely succesful, and given the Munich Air Disaster, Busby's trophy haul is likely much lower than had it not happened.

Paisley's trophy haul in the time was amazing, aa was Stein at Celtic with the quite extraordinary  67 season as the stand out.


And Alf Ramsey won the World Cup.


Because of the success at Aberdeen, and the sheer longevity at winning trophies, in the end I think it has to be  Ferguson for me.

[jeremyp]

The best manager was Sir Alex Ferguson, much as I hate to admit it. Apart from all the  trophies, he had the ability to get the best out of a sub par squad.

If you want the greatest in terms of achievement, it's hard to see past Sir Alf Ramsey who is the only person in the list to win the World Cup.

[ProfessorDavey]

Currently Ferguson winning by some distance


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52371056

I think Fergie was always going to win, and I think deservedly.

I actually voted for Paisley however, partly because I think he is under-appreciated with people ofter seeing him as someone who just continued to turn the handle on the success that Shankly was responsible for. I don't think that is true, partly because you cannot just achieve success through maintaining the momentum of your predecessor for 9 years. But also because he took Liverpool to a whole new level of european domination that Shankly never came close to achieving.

And I know he was Shankly's understudy for many years, but his entire managerial career was just 9 years and his hit rate of trophies per year of management is surely second to none (including Ferguson). In his entire 9 year career as a manager he won:

3 European Cups (more than Fergie in his 39 years in management) plus the UEFA cup. He also won 6 league titles - so two thirds of his seasons as a manger ended in winning the title. Sure Fergie has won more league titles overall, but his hit rate was much lower (even with Man U he won 13 titles in 27 years - so less than one in two).

So sure Fergie worthy winner but let's hear it for Paisley. And it seems that perhaps the general public don't buy the 'handle turning after Shankly' line as they voted him second.

[ad_orientem]

Not on the list but for me John Lyall.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not on the list but for me John Lyall.

Nice try Ad O, but not really going to cut it. We all have the favourite manager for our club, but that doesn't mean they have 'greatness' beyond that myopic view.

So as a Watford fan I've huge respect for Graham Taylor - a phenomenal manager in terms of the achievement of bringing a team from the lower divisions to being FA cup finalists, runners up in the first division, Europe and managing England. But he's an also ran in the company of the greats whose success isn't relative, but absolute.

I have a friend who is an Ipswich fan and he, of course, went for Bobby Robson - and for all his achievements, his Ipswich-coloured blinkers remain all too obvious.

Best for your club, doesn't equate to the best.

[Sebastian Toe]

Being a Celtic fan I have obvious leanings towards Stein and being a Scot, for Ferguson but I went for Paisley on a pound-for-pound basis.

[ProfessorDavey]

Being a Celtic fan I have obvious leanings towards Stein and being a Scot, for Ferguson but I went for Paisley on a pound-for-pound basis.

Good man.

[ProfessorDavey]

Being a Celtic fan I have obvious leanings towards Stein and being a Scot, for Ferguson but I went for Paisley on a pound-for-pound basis.

Actually Scots-born managers massively punch above their weight in that list - remarkable that, I think, 6 out of the 14 managers are Scots.

[ProfessorDavey]

Actually Scots-born managers massively punch above their weight in that list - remarkable that, I think, 6 out of the 14 managers are Scots.

Actually thinking about it a little more, all but two on the list are from either Scotland or the North East of England. All but one if you count Scarborough as the north east (which is probably the case), where Bill Nicholson was born.

Only Alf Ramsay isn't from Scotland or the north east.

[Nearly Sane]

Actually Scots-born managers massively punch above their weight in that list - remarkable that, I think, 6 out of the 14 managers are Scots.

And to be more precise, have a look at the numbers from mining towns in Lanarkshire.

[ProfessorDavey]

And to be more precise, have a look at the numbers from mining towns in Lanarkshire.

And likewise in county Durham.

[Nearly Sane]

This gives me a chance to tell the story about when Matt Busby moved to Manchester and there was a census and the census taker asked his profession, and put it down due to the accent difference as a fruit boiler.

[Nearly Sane]

And likewise in county Durham.

Be interested then in the number overall from mining towns.

[ProfessorDavey]

This gives me a chance to tell the story about when Matt Busby moved to Manchester and there was a census and the census taker asked his profession, and put it down due to the accent difference as a fruit boiler.

I wonder whether a key attribute to be a top manager in Britain is for your players not to be able to understand anything you say in the English language - traditionally impenetrable Scots or Durham accents and now foreign managers with a limited grasp of English.

So perhaps over the past 60 the managers with the best combined record of success and ability to speak understandable English are ... err ... Arsene Wenger, Jose Mourinho and the best of them all - Jurgen Klopp

[Nearly Sane]

Following on from the discussion of managers from Scottish mining towns, I was reading the link below to be reminded that there were 2 successful Shanklys


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52439318

[jeremyp]

Actually Scots-born managers massively punch above their weight in that list - remarkable that, I think, 6 out of the 14 managers are Scots.

That's probably a consequence of the dire state of Scottish football. Generally, there are - or were - only two clubs that you could achieve success with in Scotland. Jock Stein is only on the list because he happened to be manager of Celtic for a long time.  If you are successful at managing a Scottish team that is not in the Old Firm, you must be pretty exceptional, so you are going to get snapped up by a top English club.

Incidentally, a number of those managers really shouldn't be on the short list. Dalgliesh inherited a really good team and managed it into the ground. I wouldn't rate George Graham even as Arsenal's greatest British manager. That honour probably goes to Herbert Chapman.

In the end, only one of those managers has ever won the World Cup. That's the only choice.

[ProfessorDavey]

That's probably a consequence of the dire state of Scottish football. Generally, there are - or were - only two clubs that you could achieve success with in Scotland. Jock Stein is only on the list because he happened to be manager of Celtic for a long time.  If you are successful at managing a Scottish team that is not in the Old Firm, you must be pretty exceptional, so you are going to get snapped up by a top English club.

But Stein is the only one on the list who is there for his achievements managing in Scotland - and don't forget he was the first manager of a British club to be successful in the European Cup, so his achievements go beyond just the Old Firm.

And even if you ignore Dalgleish and Graham you are left with Busby, Shankly and Fergusson - I don't think you can belittle their achievements and that they are worthy contenders in the top 14. And even if there were only 3 Scots on that list (rather than 6) they'd still be punching well above their weight as Scots are only about 10% of the population.

[ProfessorDavey]

In the end, only one of those managers has ever won the World Cup. That's the only choice.

Not really - Ramsay managed at national level - none of the others did so you cannot really compare.

Aside from the work cup win, Ramsay's record as a manager is pretty poor - just a single major trophy (first division in 62 with Ipswich). I think it is difficult to compare a manager whose claim to fame is really based on a single (albeit successful) in an international tournament on home soil, with Fergusson (for example) who was achieving success at the highest level year in year out for decades.

And I don't think the quality or competitiveness of international football is greater than club football (arguably the best teams on the planet aren't international ones but the best club ones) - they are different and require different management approaches.

[ProfessorDavey]

Incidentally, a number of those managers really shouldn't be on the short list. Dalgliesh inherited a really good team and managed it into the ground. I wouldn't rate George Graham even as Arsenal's greatest British manager. That honour probably goes to Herbert Chapman.

You did read the 'post Second World War' bit didn't you. Chapman couldn't be on the list as he managed in the 20s and 30s.

So if you don't want Graham and Dalgleish on the list, who would you replace them with as post Second World War British managers?

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect due to the factual inaccuracies of jeremyp's post that it is a bit of substandard trolling, It's a pity though that the inability to spell Dalglish correctly has infected Prof D.

[jeremyp]

But Stein is the only one on the list who is there for his achievements managing in Scotland

So what? Scottish football is nowhere near as competitive as English football. If you get to be in charge of Celtic, anything less than winning the Premier League is failure. That is the context in which Jock Stein had success.

And even if you ignore Dalgleish and Graham you are left with Busby, Shankly and Fergusson - I don't think you can belittle their achievements

Who said anything about belittling their achievements? Why is providing a possible explanation for why there are so many Scottish managers at the top of English football suddenly "belittling"?

[jeremyp]

Not really - Ramsay managed at national level - none of the others did so you cannot really compare.

Ramsey managed a team that won the highest honour in football. None of the others matched that achievement. That's the end of the story.

Aside from the work cup win, Ramsay's record as a manager is pretty poor

But the criterion is not "who is the best British manager" - that is unquestionably Alex Ferguson - it is "who is the greatest". Ramsey is the greatest because he won the World Cup.