Author Topic: Final Points  (Read 664 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2025, 09:29:07 AM »
A language framework describes Ideas, experiences and observations both individual and corporate indeed any language frame assumes some kind of corps. It is incorrect to assume that only one has explanatory value.  But you are making the same mistake that I feel both Dawkins et cie and the Creationists are making namely that evolution is the essence of religion or that "It all hinges on whether evolution is true. It doesn't and religion is not "failed science".

I didn't say that only one language framework has explanatory value. So irrelevant.

And the point about evolution was simply dealing with the idea if the possible domains in this case being 'non overlapping' and showing that in Sriram's approach they do overlapping. So again your point is irrelevant as it isn't anything I've said.

torridon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2025, 03:32:15 PM »
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6. Darwin came up with the idea of Natural Selection only after observing Artificial  Selection. It is also likely that, being a religious person earlier, he even believed that some superior intelligence directed the selection.

..

No evidence for that.  Indeed he made the point that there was no external intelligence driving evolution, hence the term 'Natural Selection'; if he believed as you say, then he would have called it 'Supernatural Selection'.

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2025, 04:17:36 PM »



Try this fairly short video. It explains quite a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38F_e2O9hgs

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2025, 04:19:54 PM »
No evidence for that.  Indeed he made the point that there was no external intelligence driving evolution, hence the term 'Natural Selection'; if he believed as you say, then he would have called it 'Supernatural Selection'.



There is nothing external about our inner consciousness....and nothing supernatural.

Gordon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2025, 04:26:23 PM »
Not sure how you are defining magic here or whether you'll even tell me.

How about 'Abracadabra' or possibly 'Shazzam' - or any word that conveys the notion of utter nonsense.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2025, 07:19:41 PM »


There is nothing external about our inner consciousness....and nothing supernatural.
And yet your claims are exactly that. It might help if you were honest to yourself.

torridon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2025, 08:30:39 PM »

There is nothing external about our inner consciousness....and nothing supernatural.

Agreed. Also there's nothing supernatural about Near Death Experiences or Natural Selection.  Even if you claim a supernatural element, you wouldn't be able to prove it, so it would forever remain nothing more than a belief and therefore rather pointless.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2025, 09:19:01 PM »
Agreed. Also there's nothing supernatural about Near Death Experiences or Natural Selection.  Even if you claim a supernatural element, you wouldn't be able to prove it, so it would forever remain nothing more than a belief and therefore rather pointless.
So my understanding is that Sriram does not see these as supernatural but a form of natural.

Outrider

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2025, 10:35:00 PM »
1. There is nothing meaningless about the word spirit. As far as i am concerned, there is nothing supernatural about spirit. It is just what we are. You tend to slot words and concepts into natural and supernatural.....accept the former and reject the latter.

If there was nothing meaningless about 'spirit' someone would be able to explain in terms of demonstrable phenomena; to date, that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't separate into natural and supernatural, I separate into demonstrable and not demonstrable - if you continue to claim an effect devoid of a demonstrable cause, you're claiming something supernatural.

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2. Nothing mystical about spirit. It is just about the Self. About identifying what WE are beyond the mind and body. You may prefer to assume that we are just the body and the mind as just a product of the bodily processes. People like me don't.

You're begging the question - before you can claim that 'spirit' is the bit beyond mind and body you have to demonstrate that there is something beyond mind and body (notwithstanding the fact that it's not clear there's a distinction to be made between those two at all). I know that you don't accept that limit, but the problem is that you don't appear to be able to justify why not.

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3. Again....you assume that mere brain activity is all that we are.

Not assume, conclude. We are demonstrably inextricably and significantly tied to brain activity, and to a lesser extent to other bodily activities which can be shown to influence brain behaviour (i.e. hormone levels, sensory inputs, etc.). In the absence of any demonstration of anything else having a significant impact, it's a reasonable conclusion to think that we are that brain activity.

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Many of us believe that we are an entity that possesses consciousness and which occupies the body-mind. There is enough evidence for that assumption.

Then why have you been hiding it for the decade and more that we've been here? Bring this evidence out into the light, stun the worlds of philosophy and physiology, go claim your Templeton Prize and Nobel... Or is it the same old argument from incredulity reheated once more?

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4. NDE's are also evidence for the above.

Not good evidence, as I previously noted, given how many other entirely physical explanations there are for the few of these that aren't obviously culturally influenced.

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5. I think there is enough evidence that organisms adapt their phenotype to suit their environment with the genotype remaining the same.

Tellingly, though, the people that actually study phenotypes and genotypes and publish evidenced papers on the fact don't think there is enough evidence to support that claim.

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6. The idea of natural selection was born from artificial selection.  So....it assumes intelligent direction at some level. The purely materialistic idea of random variations was a later creation.

No. Recognising similarities of pattern do not necessitate accepting similarities of cause. If I throw a tennis ball into the Grand Canyon that doesn't mean that every subsequent hailstone must have been launched by an angel.

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7. IF we don't know something it does not necessarily mean that the gap will be filled by already known materialistic phenomena.

But every time in history that we've filled a gap in our knowledge we've done it by learning about a material cause for observable phenomena. The gaps for woo to live in have become increasingly small, and increasingly far apart as the boundaries of our knowledge have lit up the darkness. By contrast, we've never come to reliably know anything from mysticism, spirituality or religious explanations, we're expected to just accept on faith. The correct answer is 'we don't know', not magic; unless the answer is 'we do know, here are umpty-million scientific papers that are robust and consistent and wide-ranging enough to ascertain that the theory of evolution is irrefutable - and nothing's guiding it.'

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Outrider

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2025, 10:36:01 PM »
Not happy with the term Supernatural because of it's elasticity in the hands of those using it. I think language frames are the thing which is explanatory and that of science is definitely limited...and that's before we come onto other language frameworks.

But 'God', 'Soul', and 'Spirit' just hunky-dory, right?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2025, 10:41:25 PM »


Try this fairly short video. It explains quite a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38F_e2O9hgs

It explains nothing, and asserts that reality is at some level conscious based on the false equivalence of the dream of a landscape and the physical reality of a landscape.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2025, 06:04:42 AM »


That reality has an underlying foundation of Consciousness has been suggested by many eminent scientists (including Max Planck), psychologists and philosophers. This fundamental consciousness is what is generally considered as the all pervading supreme spirit by most religions.

Once this is understood, free of mythology and dogma, many of our problems in understanding the world and processes will be solved.     

Gordon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2025, 07:42:52 AM »

That reality has an underlying foundation of Consciousness has been suggested by many eminent scientists (including Max Planck), psychologists and philosophers. This fundamental consciousness is what is generally considered as the all pervading supreme spirit by most religions.

Once this is understood, free of mythology and dogma, many of our problems in understanding the world and processes will be solved.     

But not demonstrated.

That religions package up these 'considerations' into various forms of codified beliefs, and persuade some people to join in, especially if they are personally attracted to such notions, doesn't give substance to conjectures that are unjustified by evidence.

Even clever people, like theoretical physicists, can be gullible when they aren't doing science, as Richard Feynman (a theoretical physicist) pointed out: "I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy".

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2025, 09:30:40 AM »
But not demonstrated.

That religions package up these 'considerations' into various forms of codified beliefs, and persuade some people to join in, especially if they are personally attracted to such notions, doesn't give substance to conjectures that are unjustified by evidence.

Even clever people, like theoretical physicists, can be gullible when they aren't doing science, as Richard Feynman (a theoretical physicist) pointed out: "I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy".
I'm sure a great case for these assertions and assumptions could be made but alas, I think unless I did the job myself we will never hear that case.

Codified belief= Mere intellectual assent to a few statements
Codified= Written down somewhere?
Evidence =Physical evidence. Not logical argument

Not sure what you mean to say about clever people Gordon but I'm sure you count yourself in that number

Gonnagle

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2025, 06:22:34 PM »
So my understanding is that Sriram does not see these as supernatural but a form of natural.

Dear Sane,

And this is also my understanding, everything is supernatural until it becomes super-natural.

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle"

🎵And I think to myself what a wonderful world🎵

Einstein and Louis Armstrong in the same post 8) now that value for yer money 🎵Oh yeeeaahh 🎵

Gonnagle
I will now read posts very carefully and then using the two God given brains cells that I have reply as if I am talking to a two year old, yes that should suffice as a gentle reminder✝️✝️✝️❤️

Nearly Sane

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2025, 06:52:47 PM »
Dear Sane,

And this is also my understanding, everything is supernatural until it becomes super-natural.

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle"

🎵And I think to myself what a wonderful world🎵

Einstein and Louis Armstrong in the same post 8) now that value for yer money 🎵Oh yeeeaahh 🎵

Gonnagle
Which does mean that the 'resurrection ' is the same as the holocaust.

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2025, 06:17:29 AM »
But not demonstrated.





It cannot be demonstrated objectively. We can only experience it subjectively. That can be done through certain established practices. It is not just a belief.

torridon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2025, 07:12:10 AM »


It cannot be demonstrated objectively. We can only experience it subjectively. That can be done through certain established practices. It is not just a belief.

No one can experience Universal Consciousness, we can only experience our own individual consiousness.  The idea that a rock has some form of fundamental consciousness is a claim, a belief, but it is not something that can be experienced.

Gordon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2025, 08:17:53 AM »


It cannot be demonstrated objectively. We can only experience it subjectively. That can be done through certain established practices. It is not just a belief.

If it is subjective, but is claimed to be 'universal', and yet it is not experienced 'universally' by everyone, as would be the case if it was an objective fact, then that surely suggests that it is no more than an unjustified belief that some people hold.

Sriram

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #44 on: Today at 05:27:58 AM »



Light is universal but blind people cannot experience it. Similarly, inner experiences  require a certain mental preparedness. There are many exercises and meditations that help people have the inner experience. There have  been  well established systems for this in most communities. 

Gordon

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Re: Final Points
« Reply #45 on: Today at 07:07:29 AM »


Light is universal but blind people cannot experience it. Similarly, inner experiences  require a certain mental preparedness. There are many exercises and meditations that help people have the inner experience. There have  been  well established systems for this in most communities.

But light is an objective fact that is indisputable - and even blind people can experience the heat that is associated with some forms of light and, therefore, can experience non-visual aspects of light, and they can do so without requiring any special training. So, as an analogy, I'd say 'light' doesn't work.

Surely one risk of becoming involved in special exercises and meditation etc is confirmation bias - in that deciding to embark on these actions involves an expectation that there is a 'something' there, waiting to be encountered by undergoing special processes. Moreover, if this 'something' is so profound, why don't we all feel it in an everyday sense in the same way that we experience 'light', and where we can demonstrate and justify, in various easily accessible ways, that light is a real phenomena.