Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Literature, Music, Art & Entertainment => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on February 13, 2016, 10:51:35 PM
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Genuinely sorry to hear Richard Dawkins is unwell (stroke I believe).
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Yes but a minor one, and he's expected to make a full recovery. Recuperating at home in Oxford, I gather.
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Yes but a minor one, and he's expected to make a full recovery. Recuperating at home in Oxford, I gather.
Good, these things can be touch and go.
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The Church of England has prayed for him I understand. Some controversy has been racked up about that I think.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35571588
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The Church of England has defended a tweet it sent praying for secularist Richard Dawkins after he had a stroke.
The Church tweeted on Friday "Prayers for Prof Dawkins and his family" after the author fell ill on 5 February.
It was retweeted more than 1,000 times and led some to question if it was mocking the British atheist's position.
But the Church's communications director defended the comment, saying it was a "genuine tweet offering prayer for a public person who was unwell".
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Nothing wrong with praying for someone, even an atheist!
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Yes but a minor one, and he's expected to make a full recovery. Recuperating at home in Oxford, I gather.
Minor or not, and only partially depending on which side of the brain it occurred, strokes aren't a joke. I can sympathise with him and the family.
I was glad to hear that the CofE have asked people to pray for him.
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Minor or not, and only partially depending on which side of the brain it occurred, strokes aren't a joke. I can sympathise with him and the family.
I was glad to hear that the CofE have asked people to pray for him.
Why? What good can it possibly do for RD? Do you seriously think there is some God who will pay attention to those prayers and then do something to improve his condition? Should he rely on some imaginary god to help him regain fitness, or is it better to rely on 300 mg soluble aspirin, correct pills for blood pressure, exercises
advised by physiotherapists, support from Stroke experts, etc etc.
And I suppose I might just as well delete all that, but I have decided not to! :)
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Why? What good can it possibly do for RD? Do you seriously think there is some God who will pay attention to those prayers and then do something to improve his condition? Should he rely on some imaginary god to help him regain fitness, or is it better to rely on 300 mg soluble aspirin, correct pills for blood pressure, exercises
advised by physiotherapists, support from Stroke experts, etc etc.
And I suppose I might just as well delete all that, but I have decided not to! :)
You are quite entitled to your opinion, Susan, in the same way as I am. Not only do I believe that 'there is some God who will pay attention to those prayers and then do something to improve his condition', as a result of experience - my own and that of others - but we all know that RD is adamantly anti-Christian and CofE especially, so I'd call this graciousness on behalf of the Church hierarchy.
Having suffered my own stroke 3.5 months ago, I wouldn't suggest that its an either ... or situation, which you seem to think it is.
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... we all know that RD is adamantly anti-Christian and CofE especially, so I'd call this graciousness on behalf of the Church hierarchy.
The point about RD being especially hostile to the C of E isn't actually true. On a number of occasions he's spoken of an appreciation for, sometimes even a fondness for, various elements of the C of E - some hymns, ecclesiastical buildings, etc.
http://goo.gl/LXp7Fw
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The point about RD being especially hostile to the C of E isn't actually true. On a number of occasions he's spoken of an appreciation for, sometimes even a fondness for, various elements of the C of E - some hymns, ecclesiastical buildings, etc.
Sorry, I've heard him excoriate the CofE in debates and presentations. Just because he speaks of an appreciation of certain elements of the CofE - such as hymns and buildings (none of which are uniquely CofE) doesn't mean he doesn't dislike the organisation.
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He probably does dislike the organisation for as much as I know - plenty of Christians and Anglicans included do; I was refuting your assertion that he is "adamantly anti-Christian and CofE especially," which is patently untrue. You can find out more by reading the link to the Spectator interview I provided.
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He probably does dislike the organisation for as much as I know - plenty of Christians and Anglicans included do; I was refuting your assertion that he is "adamantly anti-Christian and CofE especially," which is patently untrue. You can find out more by reading the link to the Spectator interview I provided.
The Spectator interview is all very well, but when he excoriates an organisation in live interviews, one has to accept that opinion too.
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The Spectator interview is all very well, but when he excoriates an organisation in live interviews, one has to accept that opinion too.
Can you quote the actual words he used when he, as you put it, 'excoriates' an organisation?I shall not be surprised if your word is very much of an exaggeration.
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You are quite entitled to your opinion, Susan, in the same way as I am. Not only do I believe that 'there is some God who will pay attention to those prayers and then do something to improve his condition', as a result of experience - my own and that of others - but we all know that RD is adamantly anti-Christian and CofE especially, so I'd call this graciousness on behalf of the Church hierarchy.
Having suffered my own stroke 3.5 months ago, I wouldn't suggest that its an either ... or situation, which you seem to think it is.
To believe that "God" was in any way the cause of your recovery you must ask yourself what is so special about you and non-special about all those that pray for recovery but die.
Stop kidding yourself.
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To believe that "God" was in any way the cause of your recovery you must ask yourself what is so special about you and non-special about all those that pray for recovery but die.
Stop kidding yourself.
As I said, I don't place my recovery - which is on-going - purely at the feet of medical science or of God. So, that bit of your argument is moot. As for what is so special about me - nothing: that's the point. God wants the best for humanity, not just certain members of the species. His wishes are sometimes thwarted by human actions, and sometimes prayers for healing are more exercises in avoiding reality than actually wanting healing.
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I would think that Mr Dawkins is very unlikely to be upset by prayers offered up for him and probably greets them with a wry smile and with thanks that people are thinking of him.
On the rare occasions when people have done that for me - that is how I have reacted (I may be projecting - but the man does have a sense of humour). I don't think it's worth getting upset about a type of behaviour that is intended to do good and is offered in a well meaning fashion even if it doesn't achieve anything.
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As I said, I don't place my recovery - which is on-going - purely at the feet of medical science or of God. So, that bit of your argument is moot. As for what is so special about me - nothing: that's the point. God wants the best for humanity, not just certain members of the species. His wishes are sometimes thwarted by human actions, and sometimes prayers for healing are more exercises in avoiding reality than actually wanting healing.
That's your usual evasion of the question. Despicably suggesting that some of the people who pray are not "actually wanting healing", is a new low.
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I would think that Mr Dawkins is very unlikely to be upset by prayers offered up for him and probably greets them with a wry smile and with thanks that people are thinking of him.
On the rare occasions when people have done that for me - that is how I have reacted (I may be projecting - but the man does have a sense of humour). I don't think it's worth getting upset about a type of behaviour that is intended to do good and is offered in a well meaning fashion even if it doesn't achieve anything.
That's the way Hitch treated it when he was ill - in a "At least they mean well (mostly ... usually)" sense.
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That's your usual evasion of the question. Despicably suggesting that some of the people who pray are not "actually wanting healing", is a new low.
That thought had occurred to me as well Len. There is a certain amount of pride suggested that I find most unappetizing.
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Why? What good can it possibly do for RD? Do you seriously think there is some God who will pay attention to those prayers and then do something to improve his condition? Should he rely on some imaginary god to help him regain fitness, or is it better to rely on 300 mg soluble aspirin, correct pills for blood pressure, exercises
advised by physiotherapists, support from Stroke experts, etc etc.
And I suppose I might just as well delete all that, but I have decided not to! :)
What good does a card do?
Or flowers?
It's a sort of " well wishing"
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:)
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I hope he makes a full recovery.
I might criticise him but the whole debate would be less without him.
🌹
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What good does a card do?
Or flowers?
It's a sort of " well wishing"
🌹
:)
Thanks Rose
The voice of reason.
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Dear Vlad,
Radio 2, just now, lovely atheist lady being asked about prayers, she some how got the subject on to evolution :o
Gonnagle.
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Dear Vlad,
Radio 2, just now, lovely atheist lady being asked about prayers, she some how got the subject on to evolution :o
Gonnagle.
keep listening Mr G she,ll soon be onto the inquisition .
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That's your usual evasion of the question. Despicably suggesting that some of the people who pray are not "actually wanting healing", is a new low.
Such a new low that it has been known within the church for years. It is one of the things that is included in training people to pray for healing. There are those who pray for the healing of a relative or friend not because they primarily want the person healed, but because their prime concern is that they won't be left without the support that the other person has provided them for however many years it might have been. I suppose that's the problem about not believing that people can be healed - one doesn't appreciate the various nuances of reasons for prayer.
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That's your usual evasion of the question. Despicably suggesting that some of the people who pray are not "actually wanting healing", is a new low.
If its my 'usual evasion of the question', it can't be a new low ;)
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That thought had occurred to me as well Len. There is a certain amount of pride suggested that I find most unappetizing.
Good to see you equating reality with pride, TV.
In the same way that family members will sometimes wish an elderly relative dead so that they can inherit the person's money, there will sometimes be people who pray for someone else's recovery because of their perceived need of that person's support, a perception that may either be holding their development back or is in some other way 'unhealthy/unhelpful'.
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Moderator:
As it stands this thread has progressed in a manner that isn't appropriate for the 'Prayer' Board, so rather than split the posts, and since RD is well known as a writer, it has been moved here in the first instance.
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Good to see you equating reality with pride, TV.
In the same way that family members will sometimes wish an elderly relative dead so that they can inherit the person's money, there will sometimes be people who pray for someone else's recovery because of their perceived need of that person's support, a perception that may either be holding their development back or is in some other way 'unhealthy/unhelpful'.
Look at what you posted and reflect on how it reads.. instead of posting stuff i already fully realise.
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Good to see you equating reality with pride, TV.
In the same way that family members will sometimes wish an elderly relative dead so that they can inherit the person's money, there will sometimes be people who pray for someone else's recovery because of their perceived need of that person's support, a perception that may either be holding their development back or is in some other way 'unhealthy/unhelpful'.
Hope.
People faced with a terminal illness who pray for healing, really mean it.
It's not their fault or of relatives who pray for them, that they don't get it.
You are shifting the blame, because prayers haven't been answered.
That's a form of cognative dissonance to explain why prayers don't appear to be answered.
Ie: It's someone else's fault.
IMO it's never the ill person or the people who care for them, fault.
:(
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People faced with a terminal illness who pray for healing, really mean it.
It's not their fault or of relatives who pray for them, that they don't get it.
You are shifting the blame, because prayers haven't been answered.
That's a form of cognative dissonance to explain why prayers don't appear to be answered.
No it isn't, Rose. Whilst I'd agree that those who are suffering from any particular condition 'really mean it', (and I've never suggested otherwise), there also relatives and friends who have other motives in their prayer. Perhaps they want their parent to survive as they feel that they couldn't survive without them; then there are those who pray for healing assuming that the patient wants to recover, whilst the patient might be quite happy to fade away (and in such cases, whose prayer is more important for God to honour?).
Ie: It's someone else's fault.
IMO it's never the ill person or the people who care for them, fault.
:(
As I've never suggested that it is anyone's fault (we are all going to die - or get ill - at some point in our lives), your post is largely moot.
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...then there are those who pray for healing assuming that the patient wants to recover, whilst the patient might be quite happy to fade away (and in such cases, whose prayer is more important for God to honour?).
Then of course there are cases of terminal illnesses where people are suffering terribly, physically and mentally, who want to die, but can't.
They have to rely on the few people who have the humanity and courage to help them die, while your "God" (who doesn't exist, of course) stands by and heartlessly lets them suffer.
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Then of course there are cases of terminal illnesses where people are suffering terribly, physically and mentally, who want to die, but can't.
They have to rely on the few people who have the humanity and courage to help them die,
Len, I don't think that those who won't or cannot do this lack humanity or courage nor can you guarantee that all involved do this from humanity or courage.
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Len, I don't think that those who won't or cannot do this lack humanity or courage nor can you guarantee that all involved do this from humanity or courage.
True, but the net result is that these unfortunate people are helped by other humans but ignored by this supposed loving "God".
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True, but the net result is that these unfortunate people are helped by other humans but ignored by this supposed loving "God".
Well that certainly isn't the case in Christianity where the dead are resurrected and their eternal choice is respected.
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True, but the net result is that these unfortunate people are helped by other humans but ignored by this supposed loving "God".
And your evidence for this assertion is ...? After all if, as I and many others believe, God is the source of the brains and dexterity that the surgeons and others have isn't this simply another example of God using people to do his work amongst the people such folk serve? Do you have any evidence to show that this isn't the case?
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Well that certainly isn't the case in Christianity where the dead are resurrected and their eternal choice is respected.
But Hugh, remember that 'eternal choice' is something that many non-believers feel that God shouldn't be respecting. That attitude reflects their view of God as a monster, a vile being, etc. (Check out Floo's posts, for example, on the nature of God for other terminology ;) )
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And your evidence for this assertion is ...? After all if, as I and many others believe, God is the source of the brains and dexterity that the surgeons and others have isn't this simply another example of God using people to do his work amongst the people such folk serve? Do you have any evidence to show that this isn't the case?
1, as ippy would say.
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But Hugh, remember that 'eternal choice' is something that many non-believers feel that God shouldn't be respecting. That attitude reflects their view of God as a monster, a vile being, etc. (Check out Floo's posts, for example, on the nature of God for other terminology ;) )
Len James has God as both a terrible tyrant or an ineffectual dependent on Len's audience.
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Moderator:
As it stands this thread has progressed in a manner that isn't appropriate for the 'Prayer' Board, so rather than split the posts, and since RD is well known as a writer, it has been moved here in the first instance.
But he is primarily a science writer.
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But he is primarily a science writer.
I'm glad he is now being referred to what he is rather than guff like "our foremost scientist"
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I'm glad he is now being referred to what he is rather than guff like "our foremost scientist"
Who claims he is our foremost scientist?
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Who claims he is our foremost scientist?
I said guff like itan ancient catholic conspiracy.
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I said guff like it.
Please clarify. Are you claiming that you were the one who said "Dawkins is our foremost scientist" or that you said some other guff a bit like it.
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Please clarify. Are you claiming that you were the one who said "Dawkins is our foremost scientist" or that you said some other guff a bit like it.
Yes sorry ...I've made the correction.
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It's good to wish the ill a speedy recovery. It's disgusting and repulsive to get off on a persons death, no matter if one is politically opposite of the deceased. Just go to the Judge Scalia thread for an example of type of repulsive people at their best.
So I wish Dick a speedy recovery.
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Why? What good can it possibly do for RD? Do you seriously think there is some God who will pay attention to those prayers and then do something to improve his condition? Should he rely on some imaginary god to help him regain fitness, or is it better to rely on 300 mg soluble aspirin, correct pills for blood pressure, exercises
advised by physiotherapists, support from Stroke experts, etc etc.
And I suppose I might just as well delete all that, but I have decided not to! :)
Surely, if we as human beings, be we Atheist or Christian can be concerned about a human being independent of their religious stance. Then who is to say God is not where the knowledge of Aspirin and medication and physiotherapy came from out of concern for none believers?
Does it harm anyone to pray for healing and restoration?
Does it harm anyone to give them medication?
In the scheme of things surely all things that comfort those who are concerned or tending the sick are a measure of healing for them and the concerned. I cannot close my eyes and believe that those who are atheists should not be prayed for.
I personally believe those without faith need the experience of both medicine and concerned prayers of people who care for them. After all both express the willingness to support the person in need. Express away is what I say...