Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on July 29, 2017, 10:19:17 PM

Title: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 29, 2017, 10:19:17 PM
Or just burning stuff because it's fun.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40756629
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Owlswing on July 30, 2017, 12:45:04 AM
Or just burning stuff because it's fun.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40756629

Some of both?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: floo on July 30, 2017, 08:29:31 AM
Or just burning stuff because it's fun.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40756629

I suspect that is the case for many. Whilst peaceful protests are acceptable, there is no excuse when they turn violent.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on July 30, 2017, 09:08:31 AM
Of course naff all was said about the guilt of said guy ?!!?!
No surprise there then. ;)

From what I saw on the TV, the police were very well restrained - probably so none of the Eff-wits could make some ridiculous claim against them, eh ?!!?!?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Shaker on July 30, 2017, 09:47:15 AM
Of course naff all was said about the guilt of said guy ?!!?
Guilty of what?

I've read the article linked to in the OP and two others linked to from there and - unless I missed it - nowhere does it state what the man was allegedly guilty of, only a bland comment about police trying to stop a car from which the man ran. Given the Mark Duggan affair I can't say I blame him.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on July 30, 2017, 04:48:17 PM
Is that ALL you saw ??
He was supposed to have swallowed something which is why the cops were after him in the first place !!!
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Shaker on July 30, 2017, 05:00:49 PM
Is that ALL you saw ??
He was supposed to have swallowed something which is why the cops were after him in the first place !!!
My understanding of the articles I've read put things in a different order.

Police tried to stop a car (reason unknown).

He escaped from the car on foot and legged it, finally making it to a shop where the police apprehended him and he swallowed "an object" (currently unknown) at which point he became ill and was pronounced dead in hospital.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on July 30, 2017, 05:05:15 PM
SOOO What may we assume was IN that little gobfull eh ?!!?!? Not a few throat lozenges, eh ?!!?!?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Shaker on July 30, 2017, 05:07:20 PM
I don't see any point in assuming anything.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on July 30, 2017, 06:54:43 PM
I don't see any point in assuming anything.

Me neither ! We don't know the full facts yet.

SOOO What may we assume was IN that little gobfull eh ?!!?!? Not a few throat lozenges, eh ?!!?!?

Not our business. It's not illegal as far as I know to swallow something. If you suspect he had drugs they may have been for own use & not worth the cops chasing him. That would put the wind up anyone.
A person is innocent until proven guilty, best not to be suspicious or speculate.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Rhiannon on July 30, 2017, 07:28:42 PM
Swallowing, say, a large quantity of drugs is dangerous and I can't see how the police could do anything other than try to stop him, not only from an evidential point of view but from a welfare one. That said, it might not be drugs or anything illicit.

Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 02, 2017, 08:35:18 PM

Not a controlled substance


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40806597
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 02, 2017, 08:46:50 PM
That's cleared up then. Wonder what it was - or if we will be told?

Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 02, 2017, 08:48:26 PM
That's cleared up then. Wonder what it was - or if we will be told?


probably a Kinder Egg  Surprise!
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 02, 2017, 11:40:55 PM
Very good.
I can think of kind-er surprises though, poor bloke.

Going back to op, there was a peaceful, vigil like protest in one place which was good. Nothing wrong with protesting.

Seems like some wanted to jump on the bandwagon with the riot.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 03, 2017, 09:18:31 AM
Saw this...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rashan-charles-latest-died-stuck-in-throat-police-arrested-ipcc-not-drugs-a7873981.html

NOT an illegal substance but they AIN'T saying what is WAS ?!!?!??
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Shaker on August 03, 2017, 09:48:36 AM
Not yet, they're not.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: floo on August 03, 2017, 06:35:08 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40820468

He had a mix of paracetamol and caffeine in his throat.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 06:38:43 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40820468

He had a mix of paracetamol and caffeine in his throat.
Anadin Extra
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Shaker on August 03, 2017, 06:39:55 PM
You can get over-the-counter painkillers like that.

ETA: as  NS said.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 03, 2017, 06:40:45 PM
 ???
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 03, 2017, 09:29:47 PM
So why try to swallow it if it isn't poisonous ???
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 03, 2017, 09:44:12 PM
Did he really try and swallow it at that time as we've been told, or did he take it earlier as a pain killer?
Will we ever know?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 03, 2017, 09:45:33 PM
It was in some kind of bag, wasn't it ???
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 03, 2017, 09:46:59 PM
Did he really try and swallow it at that time as we've been told, or did he take it earlier as a pain killer?
Will we ever know?

The description on the statement is that he had a 'package' containing the paracetamol and caffeine in his throat. I don't think he'd have swallowed that for pain relief.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 03, 2017, 09:48:38 PM
It was in some kind of bag, wasn't it ???

Apparently. The logical explanation is that he didn't know what was in the package because if he had he'd have known he couldn't be arrested for having it. But who knows?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 09:52:00 PM
So why try to swallow it if it isn't poisonous ???

Are you saying that the findings are lies?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 09:53:26 PM
Apparently. The logical explanation is that he didn't know what was in the package because if he had he'd have known he couldn't be arrested for having it. But who knows?
I think saying the logical explanation is x based on our current knowledge is unjustified
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 03, 2017, 09:54:16 PM
I think saying the logical explanation is x based on our current knowledge is unjustified

You might be right.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 09:55:27 PM
Did he really try and swallow it at that time as we've been told, or did he take it earlier as a pain killer?
Will we ever know?
the statement is as pointed out by others that it was in a bag, and this is what was in his throat. So on that basis, no, not a pain killer.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 03, 2017, 10:12:20 PM
Shoulda put it down the back of his pants !!!!
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 10:16:17 PM
Shoulda put it down the back of his pants !!!!
You seem very excited by the thought of Anadin Extra down someone's pants.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 03, 2017, 10:33:12 PM
Police must have been very close indeed to see the packaging before the paracetamol was swallowed.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 10:34:15 PM
Police must have been very close indeed to see the packaging before the paracetamol was swallowed.

It was what was taken out of his throat after death. It isn't what the police said.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 03, 2017, 11:10:51 PM
My understanding is that Rashan Charles was wrestled to the floor of the shop by a police officer in an attempt to stop him swallowing 'a package'. A member of the public helped the policeman. I'm not gonna think about it any more until we find out why he was chased, of what he was suspected & why he died. If we do find out.

This article from yesterday's Guardian:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/26/police-swift-answers-rashan-charles
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 03, 2017, 11:15:05 PM
My understanding is that Rashan Charles was wrestled to the floor of the shop by a police officer in an attempt to stop him swallowing 'a package'. A member of the public helped the policeman. I'm not gonna think about it any more until we find out why he was chased, of what he was suspected & why he died. If we do find out.

This article from yesterday's Guardian:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/26/police-swift-answers-rashan-charles
which has nothing in itself to do with the findings of what was taken out his throat and what is being announced. The finding that it was paracetamol and caffeine isn't from the description of the police and member of the public
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 04, 2017, 07:57:19 AM
Thing is - if it WAS only para whatevers, then why try to swallow it when the cops arrive ?!!?!?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 04, 2017, 08:10:51 AM
Thing is - if it WAS only para whatevers, then why try to swallow it when the cops arrive ?!!?!?
Do you have any reason currently to doubt that it was paracetamol and caffeine tablets?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 04, 2017, 08:38:59 AM
I thought my post just before yours says it all, no ???
Remember it was in a BAG & not separate pills !!!
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 04, 2017, 08:47:26 AM
I thought my post just before yours says it all, no ???
Remember it was in a BAG & not separate pills !!!
So? Why is that a reason to doubt what has been announced?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 05, 2017, 08:55:57 AM
Trippy it definitely was paracetamol, no-one would lie about that. Why Rashan Charles would swallow it (still wrapped if that really was the case), we don't know and may never know but the main point is the policeman got him on the ground, tried to get it out of his throat and the bloke died. Which is terrible. There seems to have been no reason for him to die unless medical tests showed that he had an unknown underlying illness.

All anyone can hope is that there is no cover up.  The latest I could find:-
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/04/rashan-charles-family-air-concerns-openness-fairness-ipcc
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 05, 2017, 09:21:25 AM
R
Thanks for that. It begs the question - what kind of mental state was he in? Did he feel it DID have illicit stuff in it?
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 05, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
R
Thanks for that. It begs the question - what kind of mental state was he in? Did he feel it DID have illicit stuff in it?


That's not what begging the question means.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: trippymonkey on August 05, 2017, 09:28:59 AM
Oh very useful - now answer the bloody question, LOL
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 05, 2017, 10:14:28 AM
R
Thanks for that. It begs the question - what kind of mental state was he in? Did he feel it DID have illicit stuff in it?

It might raise that question in some minds but nobody knows what was in his mind & pointless to speculate. If he was in a poor mental state at that time being chased was hardly helpful.

Who seriously thinks paracetamol contains illicit stuff? Unless it's ground up to look like coke - but we're speculating & no point in that.

Blood tests would have shown up any medication,no need to try and force it out of his throat.

Regardless of what was in anyone's mind at the time, Rashan Charles is dead & his loved ones need to know how & why he died.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 05, 2017, 10:23:20 AM
But again it was in a package. Nobody was trying to force medication from his throat. For me the thing that I didn't think of is whether the police have training in doing so safely. If they see someone swallow a package I think that they would have to act or be accused of negligence/callousness but it has to be done safely.

Tabs don't need to be ground up to resemble drugs.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 05, 2017, 10:29:01 AM
Yes the fact that it was in a package and swallowed is odd.It's all bizarre actually, wonder if the truth will come out.

I agree with this:-
"If they see someone swallow a package I think that they would have to act or be accused of negligence/callousness but it has to be done safely."
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: jeremyp on August 05, 2017, 11:23:21 AM
Why did he swallow a package of paracetamol when the police came?

Two potential explanations that I thought of off the top of my head:

Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 05, 2017, 12:06:21 PM
Yup. Neither of which, though wrong, are capital offences. You'd think the law would have bigger fish to fry.
He must have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 05, 2017, 12:08:44 PM
Yup. Neither of which, though wrong, are capital offences. You'd think the law would have bigger fish to fry.
He must have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Don't think we have enough information to conclude that.
Title: Re: 'Protesting'?
Post by: Robbie on August 05, 2017, 12:19:30 PM
You're probably right,I only think about it when I read this thread. Then looked up the latestnews and saw what the family said, it's so sad.