Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhiannon on October 03, 2018, 11:47:25 PM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/491cd13b-fcfd-4e9b-b64d-a72cf8ad8c8b
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I have a nine o'clock curfew anyway, because I have to get up at 04:00 so as to go to work to provide for my family.
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I have a nine o'clock curfew anyway, because I have to get up at 04:00 so as to go to work to provide for my family.
Well said Humph. Have a listen.... "Men Too":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT76vtj9EDk
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Well said Humph. Have a listen.... "Men Too":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT76vtj9EDk
What did he ‘well say’? Both genders have to plan their lives around work and providing for their families, it’s not just men. But as the article says many consider it a male privilege to even consider going out after dark, camping on the beach, jogging at night...
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What did he ‘well say’? Both genders have to plan their lives around work and providing for their families, it’s not just men. But as the article says many consider it a male privilege to even consider going out after dark, camping on the beach, jogging at night...
You missed Humph's point entirely Rhiannon.
Did you listen to the video I posted? Any thoughts?
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You missed Humph's point entirely Rhiannon.
Did you listen to the video I posted? Any thoughts?
No I didn’t. It’s yet more of his ‘men as victims’ bullshit.
There’s no excuse for the nauseating wankery in your link. Made me laugh though. To think people actually take that seriously...
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What did he ‘well say’? Both genders have to plan their lives around work and providing for their families, it’s not just men. But as the article says many consider it a male privilege to even consider going out after dark, camping on the beach, jogging at night...
Those "many" are just a few feminists whining on the Internet. Both genders and many age groups jog at night in my local area, although few go in the park because it has no lighting. I don't go jogging at night because my non male privileged right knee cannot take it.
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Those "many" are just a few feminists whining on the Internet. Both genders and many age groups jog at night in my local area, although few go in the park because it has no lighting. I don't go jogging at night because my non male privileged right knee cannot take it.
Evidence by anecdote? Don't think so.
When a woman gets raped walking home at night there's the inevitable advice on how to 'stay safe'. If only she'd 'stayed safe' she wouldn't have been raped. So we do. We modify our behaviour, don't go out at night, always get cabs, however lovely the evening, keep our keys ready, don't leave windows open, lock doors. Because the responsibility is on us to 'stay safe'. And we are to blame if we don't, in a way that a man walking home who gets mugged never is.
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You missed Humph's point entirely Rhiannon.
Did you listen to the video I posted? Any thoughts?
I saw about half, will watch the rest later. I get it. The majority of men are not sex offenders and men do experience sexual harassment, I've seen that. Thanks for posting, good to have a different pov.
No I didn’t. It’s yet more of his ‘men as victims’ bullshit.
There’s no excuse for the nauseating wankery in your link. Made me laugh though. To think people actually take that seriously...
If you didn't look at video how do you know it is what you said? There are plenty of good men.
I cannot believe you are so rude to someone as gentle as Sweet Pea!
We are allowed to have different opinions.
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I saw about half, will watch the rest later. I get it. The majority of men are not sex offenders and men do experience sexual harassment, I've seen that. Thanks for posting, good to have a different pov.
If you didn't look at video how do you know it is what you said? There are plenty of good men.
I cannot believe you are so rude to someone as gentle as Sweet Pea!
We are allowed to have different opinions.
Her views scare me. I don't like being told I'm one of Satan's instruments, which she has said to me in the past. And she is has posted links to antisemitic conspiracy theories. I find that objectionable. See bottom of this page and comment following.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12177.0
I did look at the video, what makes you think that I didn't? That scares me too.
Even nice, gentle people can have dangerous views.
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Rhiannon
I find the title of this thread and name of the link quite nauseating. Can you seriously imagine such a scenario? You see this is when feminist activists start to sound unhinged and 'dangerous'. Men have every right to have a similar movement, but male sexual abuse and abuse goes more or less unreported. There is a whole lot more to feminism than equality in the workplace. It can destroy marriages. If a man speaks out against feminist activists he is immediately labelled a woman hater and misogynist; how often though do you hear the term 'misandrist' or a discussion on 'misandry'?
A movement can never be about equality, if it only focuses on one group. That's not how equality works.
Regards the 'me' bashing I have never referred to you as "one of Satan's instruments" and I am not anti-Semitic.
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Robbie, thank you for your kind words.
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Rhiannon
I find the title of this thread and name of the link quite nauseating. Can you seriously imagine such a scenario? You see this is when feminist activists start to sound unhinged and 'dangerous'. Men have every right to have a similar movement, but male sexual abuse and abuse goes more or less unreported. There is a whole lot more to feminism than equality in the workplace. It can destroy marriages. If a man speaks out against feminist activists he is immediately labelled a woman hater and misogynist; how often though do you hear the term 'misandrist' or a discussion on 'misandry'?
A movement can never be about equality, if it only focuses on one group. That's not how equality works.
Regards the 'me' bashing I have never referred to you as "one of Satan's instruments" and I am not anti-Semitic.
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Robbie, thank you for your kind words.
Yeah, you did, you said that as a pantheist I was led astray by Satan. No, I don't believe you to be antisemtitic, I just think you are gullible. As your link shows.
The thread title refers to what is known as a 'thought experiment'. Do you know what one is?
'Me Too' did include men - or do the victims of Kevin Spacey not count as he too is a powerful male?
As for feminism destroying marriages...Christ.
Feminism is about *equality* which means listening to men's stories too. I've dated men who have been abused and I am friends with men who have been abused. Traditional gender roles don't give men an equal voice either. How can a man speak out about his own abuse given the toxic notion of 'headship' the supporters of the woman is your link espouse?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/491cd13b-fcfd-4e9b-b64d-a72cf8ad8c8b
I appreciate the point trying to be made about how a lot of men probably never have to think about safety checks the way a lot of women do and yes I might feel safer when walking about or driving alone at night, and I would appreciate being able to go for a run after 9pm, however I also think some women can be pretty vile and dangerous to other women (and men), especially drunk women or gangs of women. If there was a male curfew, the criminal elements - men and women - would just come up with a way to attack people using women. Women criminals can invite unsuspecting victims to a place indoors where criminals could be waiting. In fact that would probably make the hunt easier if the prey willingly walked into the trap by falsely assuming women can be trusted.
More importantly, I want to be able to meet up with my husband and male friends after 9pm outside, as it would be boring as hell to only have the company of women. Also my Kung Fu teacher was a man (he died last year) and my classes used to finish at 10pm so I would have lost out if he had a 9pm curfew - he was a better teacher than any female teachers I have come across though some of the women have been good. I prefer doing pad work with men - they tend to hit harder than women. I can think of lots of reasons why I would hate the idea of a 9pm curfew for men, despite the dangers posed by a few criminals. Also a lot of attacks happen in the home, by people you know and trust, rather than out on the street.
Oh and these days what's the point of a male curfew - a male criminal could just self-identify as a woman to get around it.
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I appreciate the point trying to be made about how a lot of men probably never have to think about safety checks the way a lot of women do and yes I might feel safer when walking about or driving alone at night, and I would appreciate being able to go for a run after 9pm, however I also think some women can be pretty vile and dangerous to other women (and men), especially drunk women or gangs of women. If there was a male curfew, the criminal elements - men and women - would just come up with a way to attack people using women. Women criminals can invite unsuspecting victims to a place indoors where criminals could be waiting. In fact that would probably make the hunt easier if the prey willingly walked into the trap by falsely assuming women can be trusted.
More importantly, I want to be able to meet up with my husband and male friends after 9pm outside, as it would be boring as hell to only have the company of women. Also my Kung Fu teacher was a man (he died last year) and my classes used to finish at 10pm so I would have lost out if he had a 9pm curfew - he was a better teacher than any female teachers I have come across though some of the women have been good. I prefer doing pad work with men - they tend to hit harder than women. I can think of lots of reasons why I would hate the idea of a 9pm curfew for men, despite the dangers posed by a few criminals. Also a lot of attacks happen in the home, by people you know and trust, rather than out on the street.
Oh and these days what's the point of a male curfew - a male criminal could just self-identify as a woman to get around it.
It really is just a thought experiment. Like you I enjoy a nocturnal life in the company of men. I think its value is in flagging up the ways in which women modify their behaviour, and the fact that if they do fall victim to attack not 'staying safe' is then used as a way of attaching blame to them.
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Rhiannon
I was talking about myself as a pantheist in my new age days, not you - but you identified with what I was saying.
I'm not going any further with this but to say why even post such a thread and link if not to cause friction. As for the patronising 'do I know what a thought experiment is' of course I do.
Nice try re feminism is about equality, and I note your back peddling madly.
If you think feminism has not destroyed marriages then you need to do more research.
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Rhiannon I took you to mean you hadn't seen the video when you answered SP with
"No I didn't". However now presume you were saying you didn't miss Humph's point.
(Quote from: SweetPea on Today at 02:27:15 PM
You missed Humph's point entirely Rhiannon.
Did you listen to the video I posted? Any thoughts?
Rhiannon -No I didn’t. It’s yet more of his ‘men as victims’ bullshit.)
I looked at the thread to which you posted link, it's from before my time but I scrolled down and opened the link to Rodney Atkinson's talk. I didn't know about that, he was a UKIP man I believe but still what he said was just another pov amongst many. Doubt it's made much impact.
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Rhiannon I took you to mean you hadn't seen the video when you answered SP with
"No I didn't". However now presume you were saying you didn't miss Humph's point.
(Quote from: SweetPea on Today at 02:27:15 PM
You missed Humph's point entirely Rhiannon.
Did you listen to the video I posted? Any thoughts?
Rhiannon -No I didn’t. It’s yet more of his ‘men as victims’ bullshit.)
I looked at the thread to which you posted link, it's from before my time but I scrolled down and opened the link to Rodney Atkinson's talk. I didn't know about that, he was a UKIP man I believe but still what he said was just another pov amongst many. Doubt it's made much impact.
No worries. :)
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I went back and read four pages of that 2016 thread about who was for staying in or leaving the EU. Not pleasant! I hate threads where people get personal with eachother and I wonder, do you file them away in a library to bring out occasionally, eg "I remember what you said in 2015"?
There were some posters on the thread I don't know. One called Bubbles stood out as a calm voice of reason, I don't know if he's gone but would be good if he returned.
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Bubbles was a she. No longer on this board.
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I wonder what the Sesrch facility st the top of the page could possibly be for....
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Have to admit to some baffeleitis at the reactions to the idea in the OP. It isn't a serious proposal, it is just a thought experiment that allows women to talk about how they feel their freedoms are being reduced by the their perception of threat. That not all women are saints is just a piece of whatabouttery in the face of the facts that for whatever reasons, males are the more violent and threatening of the sexes.
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Yes, it is very much about perception of risk. As a mother I'm very aware that while my girls will be more at risk of sexual assault on a night out, my son will be more at risk of physical assault and murder. But we don't expect males to 'stay safe' in the same way. Some of that is because we expect males to defend themselves, but there does seem to be a thing about blaming women for not taking actions to avoid assault; a man walking home from a night out or from work is just doing what he has to do, whereas a woman is 'taking a risk'.
It's still the case though that while men are equally at risk of being victims of one kind or another, the odds are that their assailants will be other males. Violence by women is far more likely to be hidden.
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I think the other aspect of it is that the idea that women are somehow 'asking for it' when attacked is much more part of the psyche all round.
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I think the other aspect of it is that the idea that women are somehow 'asking for it' when attacked is much more part of the psyche all round.
Yes, or as has been discussed recently, that women are somehow there to be taken. Especially young women.
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Evidence by anecdote? Don't think so.
When a woman gets raped walking home at night there's the inevitable advice on how to 'stay safe'. If only she'd 'stayed safe' she wouldn't have been raped. So we do. We modify our behaviour, don't go out at night, always get cabs, however lovely the evening, keep our keys ready, don't leave windows open, lock doors. Because the responsibility is on us to 'stay safe'. And we are to blame if we don't, in a way that a man walking home who gets mugged never is.
When a man gets mugged or beaten up because he did not "stay safe", do feminists care?
Go to the centre of Woolwich at night, or Lewisham, there are gangs of young women roaming. And it aint males whom they pick on.
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Rhiannon I took you to mean you hadn't seen the video when you answered SP with
"No I didn't". However now presume you were saying you didn't miss Humph's point.
(Quote from: SweetPea on Today at 02:27:15 PM
You missed Humph's point entirely Rhiannon.
Did you listen to the video I posted? Any thoughts?
Rhiannon -No I didn’t. It’s yet more of his ‘men as victims’ bullshit.)
OK Robbie
Would you not agree that Kings Meadow, Plaistow, is frequented by joggers, of all genders, and ages? Few jog at night in Sundridge Park, because it is not lit at night, and any joggers risk tripping over bushes, branches, etc?
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Have to admit to some baffeleitis at the reactions to the idea in the OP. It isn't a serious proposal, it is just a thought experiment that allows women to talk about how they feel their freedoms are being reduced by the their perception of threat. That not all women are saints is just a piece of whatabouttery in the face of the facts that for whatever reasons, males are the more violent and threatening of the sexes.
Crap. Ask any male victim of domestic violence. Why you, as a victim of the same, post such nonsense is beyond me. Did you ask for it? Did I ask for it?
I did not. If you seek some solace in the thought that your experiences of domestic violence matter less because you are male, so be it.
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Crap. Ask any male victim of domestic violence. Why you, as a victim of the same, post such nonsense is beyond me. Did you ask for it? Did I ask for it?
I did not. If you seek some solace in the thought that your experiences of domestic violence matter less because you are male, so be it.
I didn't say anyone asked for it - so your entire post is based on a complete misreading of the post. And that applies to your ludicrous idea of me seeking solace in violence mattering less because I am male.
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Crap. Ask any male victim of domestic violence. Why you, as a victim of the same, post such nonsense is beyond me. Did you ask for it? Did I ask for it?
I did not. If you seek some solace in the thought that your experiences of domestic violence matter less because you are male, so be it.
I think you need to visit Spec Savers, that is not how I read NS's post.
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When a man gets mugged or beaten up because he did not "stay safe", do feminists care?
Go to the centre of Woolwich at night, or Lewisham, there are gangs of young women roaming. And it aint males whom they pick on.
Sorry, anecdotes aren't evidence, especially when the source is biased.
The point is that nobody expects men to have to 'stay safe' whereas women are blamed in the perception is that they behaviours 'leads to' rape or assault - getting drunk and wearing short skirts, as well as walking home late at night.
Your attitude to women is disgusting.
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Crap. Ask any male victim of domestic violence. Why you, as a victim of the same, post such nonsense is beyond me. Did you ask for it? Did I ask for it?
I did not. If you seek some solace in the thought that your experiences of domestic violence matter less because you are male, so be it.
This bears no resemblance at all to anything that NS said. And is offensive, frankly.
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I think you need to visit Spec Savers, that is not how I read NS's post.
NS, and myself, are survivors of DV. Smug comments from those who are not, add nothing to the discussion.
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Your attitude to women is disgusting.
How?
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NS, and myself, are survivors of DV. Smug comments from those who are not, add nothing to the discussion.
And misrepresenting what I said is fucking annoying.
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This bears no resemblance at all to anything that NS said. And is offensive, frankly.
I would have thought the semblance is obvious.
Just because your "narrative" is being challenged, does not make the said challenge "offensive" Time that you left your ivory tower.
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I would have thought the semblance is obvious.
Just because your "narrative" is being challenged, does not make the said challenge "offensive" Time that you left your ivory tower.
No, the 'semblance' to what I said is not obvious, as I have pointed out.
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And misrepresenting what I said is fucking annoying.
How have I misrepresented you?
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How have I misrepresented you?
See post 27.
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See post 27.
No I have not misrepresented you.
Your snide "whaterboutery" typically feminist remark needed to be challenged.
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I would have thought the semblance is obvious.
Just because your "narrative" is being challenged, does not make the said challenge "offensive" Time that you left your ivory tower.
You really are unpleasant.
What 'narrative'? because the only person I can see arguing for unequal treatment of the genders here is you.
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No I have not misrepresented you.
Your snide "whaterboutery" typically feminist remark needed to be challenged.
It wasn't snide. You attempt to deflect from what happens to women in a discussion about their perception of threat by saying 'what about what happens to men'. That's 'whataboutery' and leads nowhere. There's no discourse to be had with you. Just your endless attempts to heap shame on feminists of either gender.
I'm a DV victim too, which counts for nothing with you because I'm a dirty feminist.
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No I have not misrepresented you.
Your snide "whaterboutery" typically feminist remark needed to be challenged.
Again I didn't say that anyone asked for it, nor that any domestic violence on men was less significant. I suggested that you might have misread post, now it seems you are just going to lie about it.
The point of the whataboutery comment is that it's other name is the tu quoque. It's a fallacy and means the logic of the post was flawed. That some women are violent does not affect the impact of male violence on both sexes and the fact that it is vastly more prevalent.
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You really are unpleasant.
What 'narrative'? because the only person I can see arguing for unequal treatment of the genders here is you.
How?
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How?
Because of your attacking anything you see as 'feminist'. Feminism is about equality. You argue against it.
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Again I didn't say that anyone asked for it, nor that any domestic violence on men was less significant. I suggested that you might have misread post, now it seems you are just going to lie about it.
The point of the whataboutery comment is that it's other name is the tu quoque. It's a fallacy and means the logic of the post was flawed. That some women are violent does not affect the impact of male violence on both sexes and the fact that it is vastly more prevalent.
So my scars inflicted because I wished to protect my daughter against the violence of her mother, mean little, compared to statistics complied by others?
And the scars inflicted upon myself, whether protecting my daughter, or protecting myself against hair pulling, plate throwing, fork thrusting, mean little because feminists complain that DV is something that women experience more than do men?
My ex
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So my scars inflicted because I wished to protect my daughter against the violence of her mother, mean little, compared to statistics complied by others?
And the scars inflicted upon myself, whether protecting my daughter, or protecting myself against hair pulling, plate throwing, fork thrusting, mean little because feminists complain that DV is something that women experience more than do men?
My ex
So how did you handle this abuse, did you call the police and kick the violent woman out of your home and life?
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So my scars inflicted because I wished to protect my daughter against the violence of her mother, mean little, compared to statistics complied by others?
And the scars inflicted upon myself, whether protecting my daughter, or protecting myself against hair pulling, plate throwing, fork thrusting, mean little because feminists complain that DV is something that women experience more than do men?
My ex
Again no. they are as much a tragedy as any violence like this. But it doesn't stop the fact that men carry out more violence on both sexes.
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So my scars inflicted because I wished to protect my daughter against the violence of her mother, mean little, compared to statistics complied by others?
And the scars inflicted upon myself, whether protecting my daughter, or protecting myself against hair pulling, plate throwing, fork thrusting, mean little because feminists complain that DV is something that women experience more than do men?
My ex
Your rage against your ex is understandable. Nobody should endure anything like that. But the statistics that say that women are more likely to experience DV does not diminish, discount or brush aside what happened to you. If anything a discourse around this should open up the way for men to say ‘me too’, as has happened on this forum.
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Your rage against your ex is understandable. Nobody should endure anything like that. But the statistics that say that women are more likely to experience DV does not diminish, discount or brush aside what happened to you. If anything a discourse around this should open up the way for men to say ‘me too’, as has happened on this forum.
Also the thread is not primarily about domestic violence. That doesn't play down the effects of it but it is more about freedom from non domestic violence and assault.
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Also the thread is not primarily about domestic violence. That doesn't play down the effects of it but it is more about freedom from non domestic violence and assault.
Yes, that’s true.
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Again no. they are as much a tragedy as any violence like this. But it doesn't stop the fact that men carry out more violence on both sexes.
I did not think of that when I climbed out of a window, and got in the car.
When the car started, I was very happy.
And so I drove away. For twelve hours.
So YES I do sympathise with women who have escaped from such a situation.
But the feminist idea that my experiences count for nothing because I am male?
Feminism is a crock of shit.
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I did not think of that when I climbed out of a window, and got in the car.
When the car started, I was very happy.
And so I drove away. For twelve hours.
So YES I do sympathise with women who have escaped from such a situation.
But the feminist idea that my experiences count for nothing because I am male?
Feminism is a crock of shit.
Did you take your daughter with you?
Feminism is about equality, NOT abuse.
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I did not think of that when I climbed out of a window, and got in the car.
When the car started, I was very happy.
And so I drove away. For twelve hours.
So YES I do sympathise with women who have escaped from such a situation.
But the feminist idea that my experiences count for nothing because I am male?
Feminism is a crock of shit.
What feminist idea that what happened to you counts for nothing? Some feminists do speak shit, I’ll grant you, but so do you.
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Did you take your daughter with you?
Feminism is about equality, NOT abuse.
Grow up.
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I did not think of that when I climbed out of a window, and got in the car.
When the car started, I was very happy.
And so I drove away. For twelve hours.
So YES I do sympathise with women who have escaped from such a situation.
But the feminist idea that my experiences count for nothing because I am male?
Feminism is a crock of shit.
I don't know any feminists who think that your experiences count for nothing because you are male. I've just asked my wife who is a feminist and she says that is not at all what her nor feminist she knows thinks. Rhiannon has made clear, as a feminist, that it isn't what she thinks.
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What feminist idea that what happened to you counts for nothing? Some feminists do speak shit, I’ll grant you, but so do you.
How have I written "shit"?
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Grow up.
You silly man, it is a perfectly fair question. Surely if you needed to protect your daughter as well as yourself from your wife you wouldn't have a abandoned the child?
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You silly man, it is a perfectly fair question. Surely if you needed to protect your daughter as well as yourself from your wife you wouldn't have a abandoned the child?
Might not be any of our business, LR.
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Did you take your daughter with you?
Feminism is about equality, NOT abuse.
I think asking questions beyond what Humph wants to say is problematic. It sounds as if you want to judge him in some way for not doing something in a situation that you have very little information about.
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How have I written "shit"?
By saying that feminists think that what happened to you counts for nothing. This one doesn't. It's appalling.
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You silly man, it is a perfectly fair question. Surely if you needed to protect your daughter as well as yourself from your wife you wouldn't have a abandoned the child?
Anything more than what Humph says though here isn't your business.
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But the feminist idea that my experiences count for nothing because I am male?
Feminism is a crock of shit.
But that isn't feminism - feminism is about equality so any genuine feminist (of whichever gender) should consider your experience to be just as important as any other experience of domestic violence. That doesn't affect the fact that women are statistically more likely to be the victims of domestic violence.
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Anything more than what Humph says though here isn't your business.
It is fair to question him if he keeps slagging all feminists off as he appears to be doing.
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It is fair to question him if he keeps slagging all feminists off as he appears to be doing.
Not about his personal life it isn't, and certainly not involving his child. Back off.
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It is fair to question him if he keeps slagging all feminists off as he appears to be doing.
You won't mind us asking you highly personal questions about your childhood religious experiences, then, in the light of your continual criticism of Christianity?
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It is fair to question him if he keeps slagging all feminists off as he appears to be doing.
It really isn't here. And your justification is a non sequitur. You have no right to pry here.
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Just to reiterate while domestic violence is a serious subject, it's not really related in many ways to the OP.
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But that isn't feminism - feminism is about equality so any genuine feminist (of whichever gender) should consider your experience to be just as important as any other experience of domestic violence. That doesn't affect the fact that women are statistically more likely to be the victims of domestic violence.
So violence against men, and against children, means less than does violence against adult females?
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Just to reiterate while domestic violence is a serious subject, it's not really related in many ways to the OP.
As the writer of the OP, I'm happy for the discussion to carry on as it is.
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So violence against men, and against children, means less than does violence against adult females?
Most victims of murder are men at roughly a 70/30 ratio. Stating this does not mean that the murders of women count for less.
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So violence against men, and against children, means less than does violence against adult females?
No - where did I ever say that.
The importance of each individual incident is the same regardless of the gender of the victim.
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Most victims of murder are men at roughly a 70/30 ratio. Stating this does not mean that the murders of women count for less.
Exactly
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So violence against men, and against children, means less than does violence against adult females?
ALL violence is bad whoever is the perpetrator.
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Most victims of murder are men at roughly a 70/30 ratio. Stating this does not mean that the murders of women count for less.
So now you, the feminist, are back tracking?
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The message you post is not always clear Humph.
However what you experienced was beyond dreadful and I know women can be violent. Very glad I haven't had that sort of thing but know it happens, also terrible bullying woman on woman in workplace.
Re Plaistow and Sundridge Park. I don't know Plaistow but know Sundridge Park has a Waitrose,been there & children's friends lived there so occ took & picked up; I wouldn't care to live in the area, same goes for Elmstead Woods, but could be just me, that's the extent of my knowledge & I don't jog anyway. I do cycle occasionally!
You take care.
This thread has gone right off point and is horrible. Shows peoples prejudices & previous grudges - which should be left at 'the door' before posting here. Imo.
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I the the point of the thought experiment, but I do wonder if it, and other similar types of illustrative tools, are all that helpful in the end.
It will always come up against the problem of over-generalisation, which leads to confusion and confrontation (as has been amply illustrated by the heated discussion on this thread)
It makes the point well that women daily adjust their behaviour out of fear of being assaulted, and of course it is presented with the (correct) assumption that its most likey to be men that assault them. Fine... but it doesn't logically extend to the point about women being blamed for being assaulted, or 'taking the risk'. I'd say that is the more important fact, and more revealing of the pervasive and negative influence of the patriarchy. There might be better, more powerful ways to make that point.
The fact that violent crimes occur is surely a reason for everyone to adjust their behaviour? Men, typically being stronger and bigger than women, are of course more capable of defending themselves, and therefore a less desireable target. Its no suprise that women, therefore, are more scared. I'm only just over 5ft 5 and qite a long way off being a beefcake and have spent my life avoiding situations where there might be trouble. Including certain social space, pubs, clubs, routes home etc. Hell, I even cross the road to avoid other blokes if I see them coming. I don't say that as a 'whataboutery' comment, only to say that feeling vulnerable is a strong motivating reason to change one's behaviour. I confess I don't feel much sympathy for the main thrust fo the thought experiment... but only from a 'shit happens' point of view.
What really gets my goat is the difference in how I, as a man, may be treated or judged after an assault differently to how a woman may be judged. The idea that women are somehow culpable for being attacked is a festering, putrid boil on society. It is surely one of the clearest demonstrations of male privelidge and the patriarchy. I think its actually highly patronising, "ohhhh, you couldn't help yourself could you? you poor man... she was just wearing a very short skirt and you got carreid away didn't you? ah, there there, its alright, the nasty temptress has gone away now". Fuck that, and fuck the patriarchy.
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So now you, the feminist, are back tracking?
I give up. I'm sorry for what happened to you.
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I give up. I'm sorry for what happened to you.
Accepted.
Hugs
:)
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Bubbles was a she. No longer on this board.
Shame. She was so sensible.
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Accepted.
Hugs
:)
I genuinely am, Humph. We both have been through it and none of that is acceptable.
Right back at you. :)
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Accepted.
Hugs
:)
Me too. Must've been horrific.
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Hugs to Robbie too
:)
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I the the point of the thought experiment, but I do wonder if it, and other similar types of illustrative tools, are all that helpful in the end.
It will always come up against the problem of over-generalisation, which leads to confusion and confrontation (as has been amply illustrated by the heated discussion on this thread)
It makes the point well that women daily adjust their behaviour out of fear of being assaulted, and of course it is presented with the (correct) assumption that its most likey to be men that assault them. Fine... but it doesn't logically extend to the point about women being blamed for being assaulted, or 'taking the risk'. I'd say that is the more important fact, and more revealing of the pervasive and negative influence of the patriarchy. There might be better, more powerful ways to make that point.
The fact that violent crimes occur is surely a reason for everyone to adjust their behaviour? Men, typically being stronger and bigger than women, are of course more capable of defending themselves, and therefore a less desireable target. Its no suprise that women, therefore, are more scared. I'm only just over 5ft 5 and qite a long way off being a beefcake and have spent my life avoiding situations where there might be trouble. Including certain social space, pubs, clubs, routes home etc. Hell, I even cross the road to avoid other blokes if I see them coming. I don't say that as a 'whataboutery' comment, only to say that feeling vulnerable is a strong motivating reason to change one's behaviour. I confess I don't feel much sympathy for the main thrust fo the thought experiment... but only from a 'shit happens' point of view.
What really gets my goat is the difference in how I, as a man, may be treated or judged after an assault differently to how a woman may be judged. The idea that women are somehow culpable for being attacked is a festering, putrid boil on society. It is surely one of the clearest demonstrations of male privelidge and the patriarchy. I think its actually highly patronising, "ohhhh, you couldn't help yourself could you? you poor man... she was just wearing a very short skirt and you got carreid away didn't you? ah, there there, its alright, the nasty temptress has gone away now". Fuck that, and fuck the patriarchy.
Thing is I don't think you can seperate women modifying their behaviour and the idea that they might be 'asking for it'. The two things were always part of the thought experiment.
I will also point out that being tall, when I was younger cause some issues. There was often some one wanting to prove themself as tough. You learn to diffuse it. And diffusing it is of prime imporatance when you are worried about the safety of the other person. As i have mentioned before I had a friend killed with one punch a few years back. Being able to 'take care of yourself' isn't always a benefit.
I would also raise that the friend who was killed was gay. He was always more likely to be attacked than me, and my gay friends too modifiedtgeir behaviour and still do.
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He was always more likely to be attacked than me, and my gay friends too modifiedtgeir behaviour and still do.
Ain't that the truth. :(
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Ain't that the truth. :(
:(
Toxic masculinity affects men at least as badly as it does women.
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This from today's Graun is somewhat relevant to this discussion:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/05/no-shock-powerful-hate-identity-politics?CMP=fb_gu
( also relevant to the Brett K discussion)
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It really is just a thought experiment. Like you I enjoy a nocturnal life in the company of men. I think its value is in flagging up the ways in which women modify their behaviour, and the fact that if they do fall victim to attack not 'staying safe' is then used as a way of attaching blame to them.
I think the emphasis on women staying safe is changing though. My daughter just went off to uni out of London, and when I heard about the male student who went missing during Freshers' week after going out to a club and then his body was found in the river, I thought boys and girls should stay safe by not wandering home alone late at night, especially if they have been drinking.
I think people still find it more shocking when a woman gets sexually attacked, because it appears as if she feels more violated and is more traumatised by it, than if a man is beaten up or stabbed. Maybe I am wrong about that and it isn't any less or more traumatic and it just depends on the individual.
If it is more traumatic than getting beaten up, and she has therefore taken a bigger risk with her safety than a man wandering around at night, then playing it safer is just the option risk-averse people think she should have chosen because the outcome appears so much more horrific rather than because they think she was 'asking for it'. No doubt some/many weird people do still think she was 'asking for it' but hopefully that language is changing.
I think it may be an unfair generalisation about men being less traumatised than women, and men probably just verbalise less or hide the trauma because that is what is expected of them, whereas women have permission to talk about it repeatedly and openly and this adds I think to the perception that it is worse when a woman gets sexually assaulted. I could be wrong - but that is where the thought experiment has led my thoughts.
The thought experiment also got me thinking that I don't know the statistics of male vs female violent offenders as my perception is that women tend to get let off by the police and court system for acts of physical violence, whereas men are more likely to be arrested, prosecuted and sent to jail. I do know that I don't feel safe around a gang of women/ girls, ever since a gang of teenage girls decided to start throwing lone boys and girls in the boating lake when I was at at the park aged 12. But I also think I stand more of a chance of not falling down or being less hurt if a woman, who tends to be smaller/lighter than a man, hit me compared to if a man hit me. And I am aware that I stand more of a chance of knocking them out if I had to fight back compared to fighting back against a heavier, stronger man. Hence I think I am less at risk from women than men.
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. I do know that I don't feel safe around a gang of women/ girls, ever since a gang of teenage girls decided to start throwing lone boys and girls in the boating lake when I was at at the park aged 12. But I also think I stand more of a chance of not falling down or being less hurt if a woman, who tends to be smaller/lighter than a man, hit me compared to if a man hit me. And I am aware that I stand more of a chance of knocking them out if I had to fight back compared to fighting back against a heavier, stronger man. Hence I think I am less at risk from women than men.
Go to Woolwich town centre, or Sham town centre, there are gangs of young women roaming the same. They may insult young, or older men, but they will not usually attack them.
They will attack females.
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One could argue that women have been downtrodden by the male of the species and considered subservient to them until very recently in the history of the planet, that some are now retaliating. However, I hasten to add, there is never any excuse for domestic violence whether perpetrated by men or women,
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One could argue that women have been downtrodden by the male of the species and considered subservient to them until very recently in the history of the planet, that some are now retaliating. However, I hasten to add, there is never any excuse for domestic violence whether perpetrated by men or women,
Where's you evidence for this?
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Where's you evidence for this?
Any reliable history book. Women didn't even get the vote until after WW1. Victorian married women did not legally own anything - all their belongings passed to their husband on marriage.
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Where's you evidence for this?
Evidence for what exactly?
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Any reliable history book. Women didn't even get the vote until after WW1. Victorian married women did not legally own anything - all their belongings passed to their husband on marriage.
I want her evidence that women are retaliating against men with violence.
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I want her evidence that women are retaliating against men with violence.
She doesn't actually say that.
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I want her evidence that women are retaliating against men with violence.
Where did I state they were?
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Where did I state they were?
What form of retaliation did you mention, except domestic violence? And if you didn't mean that, what 'retaliation' are you referring to?
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What form of retaliation did you mention, except domestic violence? And if you didn't mean that, what 'retaliation' are you referring to?
It is a fact that some women are violent to men, in the domestic setting. I was speculating that this is unlikely to have happened in the past when they were treated as subservient to their husbands. I am still of the opinion that it is more likely that violence will be perpetrated by a male rather than a female.
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It is a fact that some women are violent to men, in the domestic setting. I was speculating that this is unlikely to have happened in the past when they were treated as subservient to their husbands. I am still of the opinion that it is more likely that violence will be perpetrated by a male rather than a female.
That's not retaliation against past patriarchy though, is it? Women were violent in the past as well.
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That's not retaliation against past patriarchy though, is it? Women were violent in the past as well.
And your evidence for this is?
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And your evidence for this is?
::)
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That's not retaliation against past patriarchy though, is it? Women were violent in the past as well.
And your evidence for this is?
Matilda the Hun, Julia Caesar, Adele Hitler, Josephine Stalin, Jacquie the Ripper...
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And your evidence for this is?
Matilda the Hun, Julia Caesar, Adele Hitler, Josephine Stalin, Jacquie the Ripper...
Norah Batty...
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Go to Woolwich town centre, or Sham town centre, there are gangs of young women roaming the same. They may insult young, or older men, but they will not usually attack them.
They will attack females.
Quite possibly - I wouldn't know. But in the context of the thought experiment I decided after some thought that I would not feel safe if men had a 9pm curfew. Possibly this would not have been the case many, many years ago, but these days I just don't trust female criminals to not attack me.
But I think I might have a better fighting chance if a woman attacked me, compared to a man so I can sort of see what the thought experiment is getting at, even if it was expressed in a clumsy way and did not seem to make the point that while the risk of attack may be reduced, it is certainly not eliminated, and women will continue to have to take steps to safeguard against becoming victims of violence from other women after 9pm.