Here's The Plan We Should Be Following.

[jeremyp]

Dear Jackie boy,
Lets hear it then, post it on twitter for the world to see, the government have not got a clue, they could use all the help they can get.

Actually, I think they have got a clue. They will either negotiate a Norway type deal or they will negotiate a terrible deal, put it to another referendum, lose and then not leave the EU.

[jeremyp]

All they have to do is ask Farage and co.

The same Farage who still has his snout in the MEP trough?

[JP]

I'm not the one telling other people to shut up just because more uninformed people than informed people voted in the referendum.
They were clearly all very badly informed. There is no case to leave the EU. The rhetoric of the Leave campaigners was a rhetoric of lies and fear tactics.
Good for you. Surely the reasoning you used to come to that decision still stands. Why are you defending the Leavers?

First of all, I have not told anyone to shut up.

Second, they were all badly informed? Do you think there was any way they would ever have had all the information then neede to make an informed decision.

Third, do you think certain categories of people should have been barred from voting? As an example, those who did not possess the mental capacity to make an informed decision?

[jeremyp]

First of all, I have not told anyone to shut up.

Second, they were all badly informed?

Clearly. They made the wrong decision.

Do you think there was any way they would ever have had all the information then neede to make an informed decision.

Plenty of people made the right decision, just not enough.

Third, do you think certain categories of people should have been barred from voting?

Yes, the category of "people on the electoral roll".

This country has always been a representative democracy. We elect MPs to make the decisions and then kick them out if they make bad ones. This is a referendum that should never have happened. We only had it to save the Tory party from splitting.

[JP]

But there was a referendum to leave the EU, just as there was one to join the EEC. If the choice to join went to the nation why not the choice to leave.

[jeremyp]

But there was a referendum to leave the EU, just as there was one to join the EEC. If the choice to join went to the nation why not the choice to leave.

There has never been a referendum to join the EEC/EU.

[ProfessorDavey]

There has never been a referendum to join the EEC/EU.

True

[JP]

Okay, to continue membership then. Joe public were good enough then.

I understand you have a massive hump on as the result did not go your way but I do not get your position on voting. Do you think the Scottish independence decision should have been left to the general population?

[jeremyp]

Okay, to continue membership then. Joe public were good enough then.

I would argue that one shouldn't have been held either.

IDo you think the Scottish independence decision should have been left to the general population?

No.

[Harrowby Hall]

Okay, to continue membership then. Joe public were good enough then.

I understand you have a massive hump on as the result did not go your way but I do not get your position on voting. Do you think the Scottish independence decision should have been left to the general population?

Not quite.

Both the earlier referendum and the recent one were devised for party management reasons. The primary purpose of Cameron's referendum was kill off the Neanderthal wing of the Conservative Party. Wilson's referendum was to shut Tony Benn up.

Wilson was a much better party manager than Cameron. Whatever happens in the future, Cameron is assured of a place in the history books - as a fool and as afailure.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jackie boy,

Oh yes! Farage I completely forgot about him, the fourth horseman, dePfeffel, Davis, Fox and Farage, let the horsemen ride out.

But I thought Nigel's plan was the destruction of the EU, will that help old blighty, will all our pains suddenly disappear if we see Brussels come crashing down, will all the migrants turn around, get back in their boats and say, those Europeans are mental, we are better off in our own war torn country.

Gonnagle.

How can you forget about wonderful Farage!!...?

Well yes, but you don't press the button whilst you are still in the building, we need to get out first. You're looking at this the wrong way, the EU is evil and needs to be destroyed.

[Jack Knave]

Ex Banker:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage#Early_life.2C_education_and_early_career

EU MEP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage#European_Parliament

You don't know what else he does because you're not with him to see this. You have no definitive proof.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not quite.

Both the earlier referendum and the recent one were devised for party management reasons. The primary purpose of Cameron's referendum was kill off the Neanderthal wing of the Conservative Party. Wilson's referendum was to shut Tony Benn up.

Wilson was a much better party manager than Cameron. Whatever happens in the future, Cameron is assured of a place in the history books - as a fool and as afailure.

He makes Ted Heath look good.

[Jack Knave]

So you are happy that the government will be dealing with it in the best way they see fit:

We have no choice that is the situation.

And if they conclude that a Norway type deal is the best option, you'll be happy.

I'm not happy about any of this, but we have no choice, that is how things have been set up.

More seriously, there are definitely problems with the EU, but it would have been more constructive to try to fix them than run away.

The EU is a problem like a turd in the bath, you remove it and flush it away.

[jeremyp]

You don't know what else he does because you're not with him to see this. You have no definitive proof.

I didn't say he doesn't do anything else but he still has his greedy snout in the trough at an institution he despises. Surely you should realise from that the man has no integrity.

[jeremyp]

We have no choice that is the situation.
I'm not happy about any of this, but we have no choice, that is how things have been set up.

So we are probably going to end up in a situation with which you are not happy and I am not happy although I suspect I'll be marginally happier than you.

It's a total shambles isn't it?

[Nearly Sane]

Not quite.

Both the earlier referendum and the recent one were devised for party management reasons. The primary purpose of Cameron's referendum was kill off the Neanderthal wing of the Conservative Party. Wilson's referendum was to shut Tony Benn up.

Wilson was a much better party manager than Cameron. Whatever happens in the future, Cameron is assured of a place in the history books - as a fool and as afailure.

I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.

[ProfessorDavey]

I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.

Indeed - those most affected by the vote and yet denied a say.

Surely the electorate should have been the same as for an EU election, rather than a UK general election, given that the issue was ... err ... the EU.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed - those most affected by the vote and yet denied a say.

Surely the electorate should have been the same as for an EU election, rather than a UK general election, given that the issue was ... err ... the EU.

The problem I have is if you were pro EU, surely you argue for them to be included. I don't understand Cameron's position on this.


We had, as a result of this, a member of the Scottish parliament without a vote in the referendum!.

[ProfessorDavey]

The problem I have is if you were pro EU, surely you argue for them to be included. I don't understand Cameron's position on this.


We had, as a result of this, a member of the Scottish parliament without a vote in the referendum!.

Another of Cameron's failures of judgement

[jeremyp]

I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.

And British ex-pats living in Europe.

[jeremyp]

Another of Cameron's failures of judgement

There are currently about three million non British EU citizens resident in the UK and about a million Brits living in other parts of the EU. That's four million votes that are most likely Remainers. The actual margin was less than two million.

[ProfessorDavey]

There are currently about three million non British EU citizens resident in the UK and about a million Brits living in other parts of the EU. That's four million votes that are most likely Remainers. The actual margin was less than two million.

I thought ex-pats could vote, but not non British EU nationals resident in the UK.

Although if that were the case I've no idea where their votes would have ended up in the country, seeing as the results seemed to be entirely UK based except for Gibraltar.

[Harrowby Hall]

I still struggle with why they excluded EU citizens working here from the franchise.

Because it was a referendum for the owners of the country, not the users. People who are citizens. Consider citizenship to be akin to shareholding only shareholders have a say in a company's future, customers do not.

Do non-citizens of Switzerland have voting rights in that country's referenda?

By becoming a citizen an individual is acknowledging a close intimate relationship with a country including a commitment to making its future his or her future. Non-citizens have not made that commitment, hypothetically they always have their own country to return to. Non-British EU citizens can vote in local elections but they do not have any say in the UK's ultimate level of management because they have not made that formal commitment to the UK. If they are withholding their commitment why should they have any say?

I know that PD is rather miffed because some of his colleagues and friends were denied referendum votes. Has he asked them why - after living in this country for many years - they have not taken up citizenship? I dare say their opinions may well have been much closer to mine than to a Brexiter, but if they have not sought to become part of the UK why should they have any say in its future?

[Nearly Sane]

Leaving your opinion aside, I struggle why someone who wanted to win the referendum excluded these voters?

And that's leaving aside your take that Christian Allard MSP isn't making a commitment.