Author Topic: Archaeologists Discover Remains of Egyptian Army From the Biblical Exodus in Red  (Read 19678 times)

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5717
I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

I firmly re-iterate that God doesn't exist.

Yep - works for me.


Nice one Trent - how's things in your neck of the non-Christian woods?



If there must be trouble let it be in my time that my children may have peace. Thomas Payne

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some do what you must!

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Whoops!
So you're arguing that the Exodus happened centuries BEFORE Piramesse was built, and that those who wrote/edited it knew of Piramesse?
Yes, that's correct.
Quote
So, that rules Moses out as the author, then.......
Moses did of course write some of the Pentateuch though.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 05:46:58 PM by Spud »

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Deuteronomy 31:9, "So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the Levitical priests, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel."

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
I came across this comment on YouTube:
"the hebrews entered egypt after prophet Josef become the ruler of the occupied north of egypt ( by the hyksos ) , the sons of isreal lived as a noble ppl for less than 60 years n the north occupied egypt & once the pharaohs reclamed it back they were enslaved"

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29836
I came across this comment on YouTube:
"the hebrews entered egypt after prophet Josef become the ruler of the occupied north of egypt ( by the hyksos ) , the sons of isreal lived as a noble ppl for less than 60 years n the north occupied egypt & once the pharaohs reclamed it back they were enslaved"

And???


I saw a YouTube comment that said 'shhunn kill bastrad nigggers, wimpos'

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
I came across this comment on YouTube:
"the hebrews entered egypt after prophet Josef become the ruler of the occupied north of egypt ( by the hyksos ) , the sons of isreal lived as a noble ppl for less than 60 years n the north occupied egypt & once the pharaohs reclamed it back they were enslaved"



Nice quote.
No evidence to back it up - and, by the way, it doesn't correspond with Genesis. Joseph is supposed to have entered Egypt, become an official - even vizier - under the king - and helped his family out when it came to famine relief.
There's a problem there - well, more than one. If Joseph was around during the Second Intermediate period, then there was no united Egypt to be vizier of. Even the Hyksos controlled Delta had three - sometimes five - separate statelets at the same time, not to mention the break up of Middle Egypt. Indications are that this started with a series of low Nile floods at the end of dyn XII - hence famine in Egypt itself - and with the breakup of cenral authority, the irrigation canals which enabled such superabundant harvests when the Nile rose correctly, were niot maintained, suggesting that food was pretty scarce at this time.
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
I know, it's annoying that he didn't state why he thought that, but it seems to be an example of how you can treat the biblical account as history, and try to reconcile it with other findings. Even though he might be wrong, he has the right approach.

There may be parts of the book of Exodus that are not meant to be historically accurate, for example the ten plagues are arranged in three groups of three, plus the last one. But the numbers of people involved do seem to be intended as accurate.

Assuming by the breakup of Middle Egypt' you mean the end of the Middle Kingdom, around 1650 BC, yes I had read about the probable cause of that being famine and breakup of central authority. You may have linked to it in this thread. Maybe those periods of famine are the same as those described in Genesis? If so, then it would make sense that Jacob's move to Egypt occurred during the same famines, before the Hyksos arrived. Happy to be rebutted on that.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 03:21:06 AM by Spud »

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22067
You have read the book of Numbers, I hope? It tells us how many there were in each clan, and the figures add up to 600,000.

It doesn't matter what the Bible says. The physical evidence contradicts the assertion that there were 600,000 Israelites.

Can you not imagine the rubbish that these people would leave behind? For example, if each one lived to be 60 years old, there would be 10,000 deaths every year. They were in the wilderness for 40 years, where are the 400,000 skeletons? Where are the animal bones? The broken pottery? the remains of the dwelling places? the fire pits?

Please stop quoting the Bible as though it was divine knowledge. The numbers in it are fictitious.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
 vThere are three periods in Egyptian history when central state control was lessened - we call them "Intermediate Periods".
The second of these, from the middle of the thirteenth dynasty until the reunification of Egypt under Ahmose I of dyn XVIII, is the one we're on about.

The last king to have even a tenuous rule over the whole land was Neferhotep I of the mid dyn XIII, and by that time his power, though acknowledged, was greatly weakened.
We know a lot more than we used to about it - for example, the Hyksos controlled Delta was not ruled by one king, though there may have been an 'overking' ruling separate small settlements.
Middle Egypt - from what is now Cairo to Luxor - split apart, and several 'kings' all calling themselves 'Lord of the Two 'lands' ruled at any one time.
Two years ago, we found proof of an unknown dynasty ruling from Abydos at this time.
In other words, there were no 'good times'; no surplus of grain - and no high official of a king of a united Egypt, be he Egyptian or Hebrew.
Whenever the Joseph story took place, it had to be much earlier than the thirteenth dynasty - which would, of course, wreck the figures laid down in Exodus - showing - again - that those who edited it had no access to
 Egyptian source material, and whatever 'history' is in the Pentateuch simply cannot tally with what we know of the period through painstaking research.
The Second Intermediate Period - like the third - has always fascinated me; possibly because it was so obscure; no gold or sensational gems to gasp at - but there is abundant archeaology, and more is being found each year relating to it - and creating a far more complex story than we once thought existed.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 07:37:50 PM by Anchorman »
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
It doesn't matter what the Bible says. The physical evidence contradicts the assertion that there were 600,000 Israelites.

Can you not imagine the rubbish that these people would leave behind? For example, if each one lived to be 60 years old, there would be 10,000 deaths every year. They were in the wilderness for 40 years, where are the 400,000 skeletons? Where are the animal bones? The broken pottery? the remains of the dwelling places? the fire pits?

Please stop quoting the Bible as though it was divine knowledge. The numbers in it are fictitious.
1 Corinthians 10:5

Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Animals-Eating-People

See for example,
Ezekiel 29:5

"I will abandon you to the wilderness, you and all the fish of your rivers; You will fall on the open field; you will not be brought together or gathered I have given you for food to the beasts of the earth and to the birds of the sky.


Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Deuteronomy 29:5

Yet the Lord says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God.”

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
Just came across this on Academia; a paper on the Egyptian population in the Hyksos city of Avaris before the expulsion of the Hyksos.
Pretty technical, but worth a read, Spud.

https://www.academia.edu/30954738/THE_EGYPTIAN_COMMUNITY_IN_AVARIS_DURING_THE_HYKSOS_PERIOD_Egypt_and_the_Levant_26_2016_263-274
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Steady on Jim! Only just finished reading the abstract for the previous one!

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Just came across this on Academia; a paper on the Egyptian population in the Hyksos city of Avaris before the expulsion of the Hyksos.
Pretty technical, but worth a read, Spud.

https://www.academia.edu/30954738/THE_EGYPTIAN_COMMUNITY_IN_AVARIS_DURING_THE_HYKSOS_PERIOD_Egypt_and_the_Levant_26_2016_263-274

Thanks for this. I've read a few pages of it. It says that the Egyptians who lived at Avaris before the immigration of Canaanites to the area during the 12th and 13th Dynasty were themselves immigrants from the Near East, though by that time fully Egyptianised.

I'm up to the bit that says, "To our surprise, however, there is now new evidence that the Egyptians at Avaris were able, to some extent, to keep their identity and also stayed in the oldest part of the settlement as a block together. "

This wouldn't go against the Genesis/Exodus account which says that the descendants of Jacob became Egyptianised, but lived in a separate region and kept their identity.

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
The problem, though, is that the Hyksos, though 'egyptianised' - to an extent - kept their own identity as well. as their radically different burial customs show - and their adherance to Reshep, and Baal, incorporating them into pre-existaht Egyptian deities such as Set, Sobek and Ptah.
No sign of any mention of YHWH, or anything approaching our concept of monotheism in what we've found at Avaris.
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
Just found this paper whilst looking for something else. It concerns the "Sea Peoples", who became the Philistines. https://www.academia.edu/683111/The_Sea_Peoples_from_Cuneiform_Tablets_to_Carbon?auto=download&campaign=weekly_digest#
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
Spud: Been doing some stuff on the Second Intermediate period recently, and this link came up. It might interest you: http://etc.ancient.eu/interviews/egyptian-relations-canaan/
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4392
Spud: Been doing some stuff on the Second Intermediate period recently, and this link came up. It might interest you: http://etc.ancient.eu/interviews/egyptian-relations-canaan/
Thanks Jim, looks interesting. I will check it out.

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14070
  • Alethos anesti! Alleluia.
More stuff about the Delta - but a find which sheds light on an unbroken history of Egypt dating back a thousnd years before the Pharonic time (c4100 BC) This shows that remains can survive the chaotic flood and damp conditions of the Delta....and that, if remains such as THIS survived, thensurely 'slave camps' of putative captive populations should have left traces on a vastly more identifiable scale. It also shows that there was no flood in the last seven or so millenias which destroyed the cultures which would evolve to form the Nile civilisation. https://www.sciencealert.com/ancient-egypt-tell-el-samara-neolithic-village-5-000-bce-predate-pharaohs
"The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want, for my part only the little white rose of Scotland,
that smells sharp and sweet and breaks the heart."