more deaths in Germany...

[Steve H]

Kudos to you Mr H (I did know that - if not that you got a 'first' - 'cos you mentioned it on the thread about Jennie Lee), but I wasn't doing down a 'postie'.

I did realise you were joking!

[Robbie]

Merely using a metonymy.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/germany-clueless-motive-fatal-van-attack-54317213

This is a terribly sad happening for all concerned. Fail to see why Islam was brought into the discussion.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

So Nazism wasn't responsible for any atrocities either? I guess pedantically you could take the view that only individual humans are ever responsible for anything but to discount the influence of belief systems and the organisations that subscribe to them seems to be an extreme position.

Technically a belief cannot kill anybody but people can kill because of a belief they hold.

It's not being pedantic to point out that it is inaccurate to generalise from a minority of individuals who hold a particular belief about illegally killing people being justified by their interpretation of Islam, to a whole belief system that is held by a worldwide majority that don't believe it is religiously justified to illegally kill people..

For example, out of approximately 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide, the tiny minority of Muslims who hold and act on a belief (that they happen to share with some governments and non-Muslim voters) that bombing/ killing/ assassinating people abroad is justified to achieve political objectives, are not representative of the various interpretations of Islam believed and practised by the majority that prohibit them from killing people to achieve political objectives.

If the minority of interpretations are unrepresentative, it is inaccurate to attribute the actions of the minority to a generalised "Islam" that incorporates the majority. Nazism is different as that refers to the policies of a political leadership in a specific country, rather than a worldwide belief system.

[Stranger]

It's not being pedantic to point out that it is inaccurate to generalise from a minority of individuals who hold a particular belief about illegally killing people being justified by their interpretation of Islam, to a whole belief system that is held by a worldwide majority that don't believe it is religiously justified to illegally kill people..

True but irrelevant to the exchange in question, which was prompted by LR suggesting (#18) that Christianity was responsible for a fair number of atrocities in its history, and was about whether an idea/ideology/religion/sect could actually be responsible for anything.

I think it's GoG you need to be addressing your point to. I agree that you can't associate a minority view with an entire religion.

[jeremyp]

Or you could take a rational view, and not try and use the term 'pedantically' as an attempted well poisoning.

Seriously? You were splitting hairs about the difference between Christianity being responsible for deaths and people who are Christians being responsible for deaths and you want to criticise somebody else for pedantry?

The point about religious beliefs is that they specifically claim an outside influence, if you argue that they actually have responsibility then you are buying into that approach.

No, that wasn't the point at all. LR simply claimed that Christians have killed people (frequently other Christians, in fact) in the name of their religion. She made no claim that God made them do it.

[Grace of God]

It's not being pedantic to point out that it is inaccurate to generalise from a minority of individuals who hold a particular belief about illegally killing people being justified by their interpretation of Islam, to a whole belief system that is held by a worldwide majority that don't believe it is religiously justified to illegally kill people..

For example, out of approximately 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide, the tiny minority of Muslims who hold and act on a belief (that they happen to share with some governments and non-Muslim voters) that bombing/ killing/ assassinating people abroad is justified to achieve political objectives, are not representative of the various interpretations of Islam believed and practised by the majority that prohibit them from killing people to achieve political objectives.

If the minority of interpretations are unrepresentative, it is inaccurate to attribute the actions of the minority to a generalised "Islam" that incorporates the majority. Nazism is different as that refers to the policies of a political leadership in a specific country, rather than a worldwide belief system.

yet the koran, the book they follow if muslim, says quite clearly kill those who do not believe what you believe, kill them if they will not convert,,

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

yet the koran, the book they follow if muslim, says quite clearly kill those who do not believe what you believe, kill them if they will not convert,,

Clearly nothing is that simplistic, hence only a minority of Muslims are using violence to achieve whatever political aims they have, and you don't see the majority believing they have to kill or convert non-Muslims.

A lot of Muslims believe that the verses you are referring to in the Quran are describing historical battles that took place between the newly formed Muslim community in Medina and an army representing the Quraysh tribe from Mecca in Arabia, which had imprisoned, tortured or expelled the Muslims from Mecca, confiscated their property in Mecca, and denied them the right to worship freely.

Hence, once those verses are put in context, a lot of Muslims believe they are following the Quran by not killing every non-Muslim they come across in normal every day life who has no interest in converting to Islam.

[Grace of God]

Clearly nothing is that simplistic, hence only a minority of Muslims are using violence to achieve whatever political aims they have, and you don't see the majority believing they have to kill or convert non-Muslims.

A lot of Muslims believe that the verses you are referring to in the Quran are describing historical battles that took place between the newly formed Muslim community in Medina and an army representing the Quraysh tribe from Mecca in Arabia, which had imprisoned, tortured or expelled the Muslims from Mecca, confiscated their property in Mecca, and denied them the right to worship freely.

Hence, once those verses are put in context, a lot of Muslims believe they are following the Quran by not killing every non-Muslim they come across in normal every day life who has no interest in converting to Islam.

or the ones not actually killing are not muslims at all and the real muslims are the ones doing the killing, we also have the ones killing homosexuals do they do it according to sharia law or do they have excuses to..

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

or the ones not actually killing are not muslims at all and the real muslims are the ones doing the killing, we also have the ones killing homosexuals do they do it according to sharia law or do they have excuses to..

A "real" Muslim? Interesting idea.

Nothing stopping any individual from deciding their own criteria about who they think is a real Muslim or real Christian or real Jew or real Sikh or real Hindu or real Buddhist or real Pagan etc - various opinions available, and not just on here.

[wigginhall]

Again, that's what IS say.  It's fake Muslims who are peaceful.  So all my Muslim neighbours and friends are not real ones.

[Robbie]

I fail to see what Islam has to do with this or why Grace brought it up; the person who committed the act had no ties to Islamic extremism.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/07/several-dead-car-drives-crowd-german-city-reports-say/

Grace we have a poster called Trippymonkey whom you will see on the 'Islamic Topic' and most recently on 'Eastern Religions' who sees extremist Islam everywhere. Perhaps you two should get together.

[Grace of God]

A "real" Muslim? Interesting idea.

Nothing stopping any individual from deciding their own criteria about who they think is a real Muslim or real Christian or real Jew or real Sikh or real Hindu or real Buddhist or real Pagan etc - various opinions available, and not just on here.

it's not about what others decide, it is about what the chosen religious writings say, the koran says kill the infidels, so that is what they must do if they follow the book..
I assume they kill gays for some reason or another that the book gives..

[Robbie]

Tell me please what any of that has to do with 'more deaths in German'?

If you want to discuss the Qu'ran, there is an Islamic Topic section.

[wigginhall]

It's no good, Robbie, haters are gonna hate.

[Robbie]

Yeah well perhaps they could go & hate somewhere else. Like the toilet.

[Steve H]

It's no good, Robbie, haters are gonna hate.

You can't shut down debate with that tiresome phrase "haters gonna hate". GoG obviously has a bee in his (her?) bonnet about Islam, and indeed many other things, but it is the case that the Koran espouses killing non-Muslims, and that it has always spread by military conquest rather than peaceful persuasion. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, decent people, but it doesn't come from the Koran. The New Testament, on the other hand, espouses peace and loving one's enemies. Obviously, the Church has often strayerd a long way from that, but whereas Conquistadors and Crusaders were straying away from their religion's tenets, Muslim conquerors and warlords were following Islam's tenets. This answers LR's earlier post about Christian violence. (18.)

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

it's not about what others decide, it is about what the chosen religious writings say, the koran says kill the infidels, so that is what they must do if they follow the book..
I assume they kill gays for some reason or another that the book gives..

You are just repeating your reply #55, which I already responded to in #56. You have your idea of how to do religion, others have different ideas. No point in repeating ourselves. 

Your ideas about what the Quran says has been discussed many times on the Muslim Board. Feel free to have a look...or not.

Regarding homosexuality - again lots of different interpretations and ideas as there isn't one Islam but as many Islams as there are Muslims.
http://www.newsweek.com/what-does-koran-say-about-being-gay-470570

This discussion is more a topic for the Muslim Board - as Robbie said, Islam is not relevant to the OP.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You can't shut down debate with that tiresome phrase "haters gonna hate". GoG obviously has a bee in his (her?) bonnet about Islam, and indeed many other things, but it is the case that the Koran espouses killing non-Muslims, and that it has always spread by military conquest rather than peaceful persuasion. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, decent people, but it doesn't come from the Koran. The New Testament, on the other hand, espouses peace and loving one's enemies. Obviously, the Church has often strayerd a long way from that, but whereas Conquistadors and Crusaders were straying away from their religion's tenets, Muslim conquerors and warlords were following Islam's tenets. This answers LR's earlier post about Christian violence. (18.)

I don't think anyone is trying to shut down debate - it would just be better to have the debate on the Muslim Board.

In response to your other points, as I pointed out to GofG in reply #56:
"A lot of Muslims believe that the verses you are referring to in the Quran are describing historical battles that took place between the newly formed Muslim community in Medina and an army representing the Quraysh tribe from Mecca in Arabia, which had imprisoned, tortured or expelled the Muslims from Mecca, confiscated their property in Mecca, and denied them the right to worship freely.

Hence, once those verses are put in context, a lot of Muslims believe they are following the Quran by not killing every non-Muslim they come across in normal every day life who has no interest in converting to Islam."

Regarding the spread of Islam and Christianity - there have been many articles and discussions about the evangelical aspects of the British Empire.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/evangelicalempire.htm

Similarly, while some Muslim leaders did force conversions by military conquest, many parts of the Arab Empire spread for reasons of wealth, defence (creating buffer zones to protect the core), prestige, which would have also resulted in many of its subjects converting to Islam. In places like Indonesia, which is about 87% Muslim, it was a slow process through trading and interaction, but as the Muslim population and power grew in the region there would also have been episodes of military expansion, similar to the expansion of other empires.

Islam is considered the fastest growing religion today and this is not due to military expansion.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/islam-will-largest-religion-world-2070-says-report/

[Grace of God]

It's no good, Robbie, haters are gonna hate.

so you think people should like those trying to kill them ... odd idea...

[Grace of God]

Yeah well perhaps they could go & hate somewhere else. Like the toilet.

again, should we like the people who want to kill us..

[Grace of God]

You are just repeating your reply #55, which I already responded to in #56. You have your idea of how to do religion, others have different ideas. No point in repeating ourselves. 

Your ideas about what the Quran says has been discussed many times on the Muslim Board. Feel free to have a look...or not.

Regarding homosexuality - again lots of different interpretations and ideas as there isn't one Islam but as many Islams as there are Muslims.
http://www.newsweek.com/what-does-koran-say-about-being-gay-470570

This discussion is more a topic for the Muslim Board - as Robbie said, Islam is not relevant to the OP.

Again, it doesn't matter how "I do religion", the fact is muslims are killing people, blowing up innocent men, women and children to get in to paradise... it is happening all the time, it needs dealing with, perhaps if some powerful muslim leader stood up and actually said they are not going to heaven, some may stop, at least we would see some denial but we don't see anything...

perhaps if we could talk muslims in to wearing hates that say I am peaceful and no I am not lying about it just because the koran says I can lie about it, that might help...

the fact is those killing infidels can clearly see there book says so..

killing gays it happens in many muslim countries are you saying everyone of them are misinterpreting the koran or sharia.. it seems unlikely and more like a smoke screen, the same one used to cover all of islam's little habits..

[floo]

Again, it doesn't matter how "I do religion", the fact is muslims are killing people, blowing up innocent men, women and children to get in to paradise... it is happening all the time, it needs dealing with, perhaps if some powerful muslim leader stood up and actually said they are not going to heaven, some may stop, at least we would see some denial but we don't see anything...

perhaps if we could talk muslims in to wearing hates that say I am peaceful and no I am not lying about it just because the koran says I can lie about it, that might help...

the fact is those killing infidels can clearly see there book says so..

killing gays it happens in many muslim countries are you saying everyone of them are misinterpreting the koran or sharia.. it seems unlikely and more like a smoke screen, the same one used to cover all of islam's little habits..

Not all Muslims are extremists, anymore than all Christians are. It is fundies of both religions who give them a bad name.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Again, it doesn't matter how "I do religion", the fact is muslims are killing people, blowing up innocent men, women and children to get in to paradise... it is happening all the time, it needs dealing with, perhaps if some powerful muslim leader stood up and actually said they are not going to heaven, some may stop, at least we would see some denial but we don't see anything...

perhaps if we could talk muslims in to wearing hates that say I am peaceful and no I am not lying about it just because the koran says I can lie about it, that might help...

the fact is those killing infidels can clearly see there book says so..

killing gays it happens in many muslim countries are you saying everyone of them are misinterpreting the koran or sharia.. it seems unlikely and more like a smoke screen, the same one used to cover all of islam's little habits..

If you missed all the statements of condemnation of theological justification for terrorism by various Muslim organisations, I can't help you. That's something you will have to discuss with the editor of the Sun or Daily Mail or whatever newspaper you read to keep yourself informed, and question why these statements were not covered by their newspapers.

You can state what you believe the Quran says - whether other people believe your statements or not is a different matter. But if posting your beliefs is a need you have - ok.

There are websites full of claims about what the Quran supposedly says - another poster, Trippy, used to "entertain" people by posting quotes from these websites on the Muslim Board but never did share the name of the translation of the Quran that these websites were using, which probably means they were made up or altered. In response I used to post links to online widely-used Quran translations that conflicted with Trippy's translations. He continued to believe his translations were correct - that was enough for him. Apart from Trippy, there were a few other posters who copied and pasted from the same websites he did.  I don't plan on wasting mine or everyone else's time repeating the whole process again with you about what the Quran supposedly says or how different Muslims interpret it in the practice of their religion.

[Steve H]

so you think people should like those trying to kill them ... odd idea...

Remind me - who was it who told us to love our enemies?

[floo]

Remind me - who was it who told us to love our enemies?

That guy didn't appear to love the ones he didn't approve of.