Author Topic: Shamima Begum  (Read 18667 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2019, 07:49:17 PM »
Disappointing to hear Tom Tugendhat, a Tory I have some time for, on Channel 4 news say a 19 year old 9 months pregnant person is a danger to us all. How glorifying of ISIS.

Udayana

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2019, 08:50:28 PM »
She went out to join and support a group engaged in genocide, rape as a weapon of war and enslavement.

Any number of women and girls have performed suicide bombings after grooming or brainwashing. As she has shown no sign of changing her views, she is potentially extremely dangerous, and must be treated as such. 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2019, 09:04:42 PM »
She went out to join and support a group engaged in genocide, rape as a weapon of war and enslavement.

Any number of women and girls have performed suicide bombings after grooming or brainwashing. As she has shown no sign of changing her views, she is potentially extremely dangerous, and must be treated as such.
But she isn't a danger to us all and talking up the threat just makes ISIS a bigger danger than it is.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2019, 10:25:26 PM »
Four years ago, three 15 year old girls flew to Turkey and crossed the border into IS-held territory in Syria. They were British Muslims who had been radicalised on line. Within a few weeks of their arrival, they were married and began their task of bringing new soldiers into the world.

There was considerable publicity about their action at the time. Their parents knew nothing of their intention.

One of these girls, now 19, wants to return to Britain to give birth to her third child - her earlier children had died from malnutrition and disease. There is debate about whether or not this should be allowed, after all, she may act as a kind of fifth columnist and engage in clandestine activities herself. Her comments about atrocities that she has been aware of suggest that she is somewhat blase about IS activities.

My view:

1   She was 15 when she left - she was a child.

2   Her intentions were known to the security services and to the police - but her parents were not informed, nor was any attempt made to stop her or to deradicalise her.

3   She is a UK citizen by birth.

Therefore, I consider that she should be allowed to come "home". She should be carefully monitored and subjected to systematic deradicalisation - the state, through its own inaction, bears much responsibility in this instance. I am aware that deradicalisation is not always successful - but an attempt must be made. She is damaged and some attempt must be made to repair her.

What do others think?  Am I being too naive and idealistic?
One more damaged person to add to the growing number of seemingly damaged people in Britain that this country seems to lack the resources or know-how to 'fix'? Even if she made it back it doesn't seem likely that she would be properly monitored due to lack of resources. I'm not sure what she means when she says she doesn't regret going to join ISIS but it doesn't sound promising.

I suppose it would be discrimination to decide that a damaged Muslim UK citizen was worse for society than a damaged non-Muslim UK citizen, but I don't think it would be discrimination to examine her views and speech and prosecute her for joining a terrorist organisation if she did make it back. Given that there seems to have been police action in Britain against certain types of speech in the past, it's only fair that she should be similarly prosecuted on her return if she uses “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour that causes, or is likely to cause, another person harassment, alarm or distress” or is deemed to incite “racial and religious hatred” or “hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation” or language that “encourages terrorism”. But again, not sure the resources exist to monitor this.

What is difficult to deal with is people whose speech does not fall within the above definitions but nevertheless causes division. I went to a mosque seemingly full of ordinary, friendly people a few months ago and was extremely annoyed to hear someone say during a charity fundraising speech in the mosque that the mosque used to be a British Legion Club where members of the armed forces came to celebrate murdering and raping Muslims.

Obviously many members of the British armed forces have saved Muslim lives, and these stupid generalisations are similar to the garbage that people such as Tommy Robinson come out with.

Given this girl is helpfully stuck in a refugee camp out of the UK and still doesn't seem to understand that joining a violent caliphate made up of fallible humans was never going to end well, I don't see any need for UK consulate staff to travel to a failed state war zone to bring her back to add to the pool of people here who try to stir up division through facile generalisations about other groups. Hopefully her current lack of regret in joining ISIS means it's unlikely that she will be helped to get to a British consulate in Turkey by anyone who is against ISIS.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2019, 07:42:13 AM »
He wouldn't be allowed in after Brexit. He's Dutch.
thank you, I wonder what the Dutch will want to do about him.  - I haven't been reading anything, but I have now googled and read a page about Begum and her Dutch husband, who surrendered, and since there is no further mention of him in the article, I wonder whether he is out of the picture as far as she is concerned.
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Anchorman

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2019, 09:28:01 AM »
Shouldn't be let back, least of all to ponce off the state. Fuck her off! Let her rot there.


Yet if we claim to be Christian, can we refuse to help her, distasteful as the interview was?
Legally, unless there is any evidence that she has committed acts of terror, I don't think we can refuse her entry should she present herself at a border -or even an embassy. She remains a UK citizen, her passport has not been revoked, and it cannot be revoked retrospectively.
Should she return, social services must be involved in monitoring the situaton, and effort made to'de-radicalise' her.
There's also the point that, should we refuse her entry, that might provoke the radical hotheads in the UK to some action which no-one wants.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

wigginhall

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2019, 09:34:16 AM »
Generally, such people have been let back in, and investigated.  So how is she different?  Possibly, because she doesn't sound remorseful, however it seems odd to make such a decision based on a newspaper article.   However, Javid is sounding tough, but then the Daily Mail will be hovering.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2019, 09:42:02 AM »
The argument seems a little academic to me as surely this will require a change in international law (to prevent her returning) as she is a British citizen.
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wigginhall

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2019, 09:45:53 AM »
The argument seems a little academic to me as surely this will require a change in international law (to prevent her returning) as she is a British citizen.

I thought that she could be prevented from coming back, if she is deemed a dangerous terrorist.  Opinion seems to vary on this.   The Daily Mail article amused me, it began, "remorseless schoolgirl Begum" ....
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wigginhall

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2019, 10:18:05 AM »
One of the odd things about this is that a suspected murderer in another country, would probably be repatriated to stand trial.   But apparently this is different.
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Udayana

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2019, 10:34:00 AM »
One of the odd things about this is that a suspected murderer in another country, would probably be repatriated to stand trial.   But apparently this is different.

No one thinks she killed anyone here. Certain offences committed abroad, including murder, allow extra-territorial jurisdiction under the Suppression of Terrorism act, but presumably there has to a case.   
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2019, 10:37:35 AM »
No one thinks she killed anyone here. Certain offences committed abroad, including murder, allow extra-territorial jurisdiction under the Suppression of Terrorism act, but presumably there has to a case.   
I think wigginhall's point is that it seems odd to repatriate someone who we think is a murderer, but to refuse entry to someone where there is no such case.

Udayana

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2019, 10:55:25 AM »
hmm .. but it is not at all the same thing.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2019, 11:03:00 AM »
hmm .. but it is not at all the same thing.
Analogies never are - I think wigginhall's point is that it is odd that we should see an actual crime as somehow deserving of being repatriated in order to have justice, but in this case where there doesn't seem to be a crime that we are aware of that we want to stop return. He's not arguing for a specific action, just noting that it seems an inconsistent way of thinking.

That said, I think that were someone regarded as having committed a terrorist act elsewhere we would seek not to repatriate them. And it's about where any crime takes place that creates the real problem with the analogy.

Roses

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2019, 11:29:56 AM »
Whilst Begum may not have actually killed anyone, she appears to have been complicit by supporting those who committed the most appalling atrocities. Those who haven't actually watched the interview she gave should do so, it was scary, imo.
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wigginhall

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2019, 11:41:36 AM »
In a way, she has handled this badly, but then she is 19.   Giving an interview with the Times, saying she has no regrets, severed heads, etc.,has alienated people.  I guess that most of the 400 who have returned, did so quietly, and avoided the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade.  It's possible also that she is heavily traumatized.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2019, 12:01:19 PM »
It's possible also that she is heavily traumatized.

Aw! Bless her heart!
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wigginhall

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2019, 12:08:55 PM »
Aw! Bless her heart!

I love the smell of Christian love in the morning, it makes you realize how Christians keep the flame of compassion alive!
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ad_orientem

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2019, 01:11:36 PM »
I love the smell of Christian love in the morning, it makes you realize how Christians keep the flame of compassion alive!

There's no reason why the UK should be under any obligation to receive such people, especially as they'll only be a burden to the state. As far as the UK is concern, they should already be considered to be in their chosen home.
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Anchorman

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2019, 01:22:37 PM »
Aw! Bless her heart!
     


Indeed. We need topray fort thosde in trauma - and do what Christ commands; love and care.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2019, 01:25:11 PM »
There's no reason why the UK should be under any obligation to receive such people, especially as they'll only be a burden to the state. As far as the UK is concern, they should already be considered to be in their chosen home.
   

Smd yet, ifwe claim Christ as Lord, we cannot ignore her, even if we want to.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2019, 02:41:38 PM »
There's no reason why the UK should be under any obligation to receive such people, especially as they'll only be a burden to the state. As far as the UK is concern, they should already be considered to be in their chosen home.
except that's the law the UK signed up for, because this person is UKish

wigginhall

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2019, 02:48:25 PM »
     


Indeed. We need topray fort thosde in trauma - and do what Christ commands; love and care.

Well said, Jim, Ad-o wants to throw the first stone, whereas at least you want to help the one being stoned.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2019, 03:31:32 PM »
Well said, Jim, Ad-o wants to throw the first stone, whereas at least you want to help the one being stoned.

Who's throwing stones? Not me. I haven't called for her to be strung up.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2019, 03:36:17 PM »
Who's throwing stones? Not me. I haven't called for her to be strung up.
Even if she does say Jehovah?