Clocks go back

[ProfessorDavey]

The clocks go back this weekend.

I don't have an issue with having both GMT and BST at different times of the year - I do have an issue about when the clocks are changed.

I cannot understand why the Autumn and Spring dates when the clocks change are so unbalanced - so when they change on Sunday morning we will be roughly 5 weeks the winter side of the Autumn equinox - so surely in Spring they should go forward 5 weeks the winter side of the spring equinox, but we have to wait until after the equinox for the clock to change.

So on Saturday (in London) there is almost exactly 10 hours from sunrise to sunset - the equivalent would be the 16 Feb yet on that date we will be waiting for another 6 weeks before BST starts.

[Roses]

I would prefer BST all the year round, but realise those poor souls living North of the border would find it dark almost all day.

[ProfessorDavey]

I would prefer BST all the year round, but realise those poor souls living North of the border would find it dark almost all day.

It doesn't actually change the amount of daylight of course, merely when that daylight happened according to the clock.

[jeremyp]

It doesn't actually change the amount of daylight of course, merely when that daylight happened according to the clock.

Quite.

I googled Glasgow sunrise and sunset times and found that, on 21/12/2019 it will rise at 0846 and set at 1544. Should we stay on BST the times would obviously be 0946 and 1644 respectively. Frankly, I don't think there's much advantage there for one system or the other. I say let's stay on BST all year round.

[Nearly Sane]

Of course the clock movement may be affected if we haven't Brexited by 2021

[Udayana]

Scotland could keep the current system or stay on GMT all year if they liked, whilst England and Wales stay on BST all year. Northern Ireland could go back to the dark ages!

[ProfessorDavey]

Of course the clock movement may be affected if we haven't Brexited by 2021

Why?

[Udayana]

Why?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47704345 ?

[Steve H]

I would prefer BST all the year round, but realise those poor souls living North of the border would find it dark almost all day.

As you will remember, that was tried in the late 60s. It was so unpopular that they had to revert to the clocks changing. Proponents of BST all year round nowadays try to kid us that it was popular with most people, but big business disliked it, so it was not kept. That is the opposite of the truth: big businessc wanted the change, most people (especially in northern Scotland, where it wasn't getting light until almost 10:00) hated it. Don't come back with the road-safety argument; I don't believe it. Fiddling around with the clocks doesn't increase the actual hours of daylight: in midwinter, you've got to either go to work or come home in the dark, whatever scheme is in place. I think it'd be a pity never to have the clock time approximating to solar time, which is what GMT is. Bear in mind, too, that it is always possible for an individual employer to vary the hours of attendance for its emplyees: a blanket time-change isn't necessary.

[Steve H]

Why BST, anyway? Why not stay on GMT all year round? It doesn't alter the actual length of the period of daylight!

[jeremyp]

Of course the clock movement may be affected if we haven't Brexited by 2021

If we have Brexited, we'll be putting the clocks back to 1955.

[Roses]

If we have Brexited, we'll be putting the clocks back to 1955.

Why 1955, we joined the EU in 1973?

[jeremyp]

As you will remember, that was tried in the late 60s. It was so unpopular that they had to revert to the clocks changing.

People would have got used to it soon enough. We effectively operated on GMT+1 during the entire war without too many issues.

(especially in northern Scotland, where it wasn't getting light until almost 10:00)

This is a misrepresentation of the situation. In Glasgow on the shortest day of the year, sunrise would be at about 9.45am. For most of the winter period it would rise earlier than that.

Don't come back with the road-safety argument; I don't believe it. Fiddling around with the clocks doesn't increase the actual hours of daylight: in midwinter, you've got to either go to work or come home in the dark,

In Glasgow in midwinter, you do both in the dark.

After the experiment in the 60's they found there was am increase in accidents in the morning, but a much bigger decrease in accidents in the evening. Unfortunately, the water was muddied because, at the same time, it became illegal to drink and drive. So there's no really reliable statistics either way.
 

whatever scheme is in place. I think it'd be a pity never to have the clock time approximating to solar time, which is what GMT is.

Why? What does it matter?

Bear in mind, too, that it is always possible for an individual employer to vary the hours of attendance for its emplyees: a blanket time-change isn't necessary.

This is correct, so why do we do a blanket time change twice a year?

[jeremyp]

Why 1955, we joined the EU in 1973?

It was a joke.

[Steve H]

This [employers being able to change hours of attendance] is correct, so why do we do a blanket time change twice a year?

We don't - but why not keep GMT all year round, to avoid very late sunrise on winter mornings, and enable posties to do their walk in more daylight? Glasgow has been mentioned, but that's southern Scotland: what about Aberdeen, or Wick, or inverness?

[Roses]

I was disappointed when they scrapped BST after such a short while in the 60s, they should have given it longer imo.

[Nearly Sane]

I was disappointed when they scrapped BST after such a short while in the 60s, they should have given it longer imo.

3 years seems a reasonable trial?

[Roses]

Am I right in thinking the EU is thinking of dropping the hour change?

[Nearly Sane]

See replies #6 and #7 on the thread.

[ad_orientem]

I don't care if we're in normal time or summer time all year, as long as we don't have to change the clocks twice a year. Couldn't think of anything more a waste of time and effort. Whoever invented it should have been shot. There is only one plus side. When we move the clocks back in the autumn the bars are open for an extra hour.

[Roses]

Most our many clocks are now radio controlled thank goodness. It used to take me ages putting them back or forward before bedtime on the Saturday night.

[Anchorman]

As you will remember, that was tried in the late 60s. It was so unpopular that they had to revert to the clocks changing. Proponents of BST all year round nowadays try to kid us that it was popular with most people, but big business disliked it, so it was not kept. That is the opposite of the truth: big businessc wanted the change, most people (especially in northern Scotland, where it wasn't getting light until almost 10:00) hated it. Don't come back with the road-safety argument; I don't believe it. Fiddling around with the clocks doesn't increase the actual hours of daylight: in midwinter, you've got to either go to work or come home in the dark, whatever scheme is in place. I think it'd be a pity never to have the clock time approximating to solar time, which is what GMT is. Bear in mind, too, that it is always possible for an individual employer to vary the hours of attendance for its emplyees: a blanket time-change isn't necessary.

   


Never mind Northern Scotland or the Northern Isles...it was bad enough in the West of Scotland.
Walking to school in a semi-rural environment on unpaved roads coated with black ice at ten to nine on a December morning it the pitch black wasn't my idea of fun.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have no issue with changing the clocks twice a year - I have an issue with when they are changed.

Make it equal before and after the winter solstace - so back end of Oct, forward again mid/late Feb.

It is nonsense that we wait until a week after the equinox in spring - and there cannot be any argument about it being dark in Scotland, because once we actually get to putting the clocks forward there is more daylight the further north you go, not less.

[jeremyp]

We don't

Yes we do, there's one coming up on Sunday. There's going to be another in March.

- but why not keep GMT all year round, to avoid very late sunrise on winter mornings

To avoid the early sunset, of course.

and enable posties to do their walk in more daylight?

Ah, the halcyon days of the post arriving before 9 o'clock.

Glasgow has been mentioned, but that's southern Scotland: what about Aberdeen, or Wick, or inverness?

0846 and 1527. Sunrise is at the same time as Glasgow. Sunset is in the middle of the afternoon.

I chose Glasgow, by the way, because it is the most densely populated part of Scotland and Edinburgh - the other big city is at roughly the same latitude.

[jeremyp]

Most our many clocks are now radio controlled thank goodness. It used to take me ages putting them back or forward before bedtime on the Saturday night.

You missed a trick there. When they go forward, you should do them the morning after. That way you don't lose an hour's sleep.