Unconditional surrender...?

[ippy]

Very poor taste.

The naming of the statue, 'Unconditional surrender', doesn't convey the heightened feeling of that particular day.

I really don't see how it is you think this is an assault and not a sailor being a bit cheeky or, if you like, perhaps a lot cheeky especially when the photo has mentioned V J Day Celebrations along with the picture, it's a delight to the eye and a lovely composition that conveys just how joyful a day that V J Day must have been.

Of course he didn't ask for permission he rather obviously acted on impulse through sheer joy and we don't know but he may well have apologised to her after acting on impulse and may have said something like, "sorry I shouldn't have done that", technically he wasn't correct but hay?

Come on you miserable lot even I'm not 100% correct every time I act, V J DAY?

If a person doesn't understand the history of how the sculptor named his piece of work particularly with that, 'Unconditional surrender', misleading misnomer, well yes it may well be looked on as a demonstration of malevolent force being used on that woman if all you know of it is that awful title.

ippy.

[ippy]

The point would be that you explain where I have misinterpreted you because I am genuinely at a loss to see any misinterpretation (rather than disagreement) of your posts.

You really haven't got my meaning I've written another post above see if you can get that, somehow I can't see that happening.

 I'm not deliberately trying to write anything in an ambiguous way. 

ippy

[Roses]

You really haven't got my meaning I've written another post above see if you can get that, somehow I can't see that happening.

 I'm not deliberately trying to write anything in an ambiguous way. 

ippy

You want to see it from a woman's perspective.

[Nearly Sane]

The naming of the statue, 'Unconditional surrender', doesn't convey the heightened feeling of that particular day.

I really don't see how it is you think this is an assault and not a sailor being a bit cheeky or, if you like, perhaps a lot cheeky especially when the photo has mentioned V J Day Celebrations along with the picture, it's a delight to the eye and a lovely composition that conveys just how joyful a day that V J Day must have been.

Of course he didn't ask for permission he rather obviously acted on impulse through sheer joy and we don't know but he may well have apologised to her after acting on impulse and may have said something like, "sorry I shouldn't have done that", technically he wasn't correct but hay?

Come on you miserable lot even I'm not 100% correct every time I act, V J DAY?

If a person doesn't understand the history of how the sculptor named his piece of work particularly with that, 'Unconditional surrender', misleading misnomer, well yes it may well be looked on as a demonstration of malevolent force being used on that woman if all you know of it is that awful title.

ippy.

No consent means it is an assault. You need to stop apologising for assault.

[ippy]

You want to see it from a woman's perspective.

I've asked several women they all knew the photo and see it as a delight in a similar way that I do and I've had a similar reaction from my own male friends and again they all knew of the photo referred to.

When the statue, taken on its own, I can understand how that can be misconstrued, with its inappropriate name/title but even then if you learn the history.

Regards, ippy.

[Nearly Sane]

I've asked several women they all knew the photo and see it as a delight in a similar way that I do and I've had a similar reaction from my own male friends and again they all knew of the photo referred to.

When the statue, taken on its own, I can understand how that can be misconstrued, with its inappropriate name/title but even then if you learn the history.

Regards, ippy.

And did you tell people that it was non consensual?

[ippy]

And did you tell people that it was non consensual?

My wife has just reminded me of when we celebrated new years eve some to many years back when all of the traffic was brought to a standstill by all of the revellers blocking the roads around Trafalgar Square and lots of the young women were assaulting the policemen by planting so many non-consensual kisses all over the poor fellows.

I can remember reading about all of the court proceedings on the following days where some of these women were even accused of trying to cuddle these police as well as kissing them? Tut Tut it was getting like Sod em and Gomorrah, well I never did.

Is this thread a wind up? I suppose it must be?

ippy

[jeremyp]

We don't know for certain but it's where the evidence points, and in dismissing her, you are then implying that's she was lying. Further when you mentioned earlier '(who doesn't appear to be putting up any resistance)' - why did you mention that without victim blaming. You really have an appalling attitude to the question of women and assault.

How do we know she regarded herself as a victim? Yes, she said the kiss was non consensual, but that doesn't mean she had a problem with it at the time. As far as I know, no formal complaint was made to the police.

I don't think you should be making accusations like this about other forum members without some evidence that there was anybody involved who felt they were assaulted.

[Nearly Sane]

My wife has just reminded me of when we celebrated new years eve some to many years back when all of the traffic was brought to a standstill by all of the revellers blocking the roads around Trafalgar Square and lots of the young women were assaulting the policemen by planting so many non-consensual kisses all over the poor fellows.

I can remember reading about all of the court proceedings on the following days where some of these women were even accused of trying to cuddle these police as well as kissing them? Tut Tut it was getting like Sod em and Gomorrah, well I never did.

Is this thread a wind up? It suppose it must be?

ippy

Yep, women objecting to assault is obviously a wind up.

[Roses]

My wife has just reminded me of when we celebrated new years eve some to many years back when all of the traffic was brought to a standstill by all of the revellers blocking the roads around Trafalgar Square and lots of the young women were assaulting the policemen by planting so many non-consensual kisses all over the poor fellows.

I can remember reading about all of the court proceedings on the following days where some of these women were even accused of trying to cuddle these police as well as kissing them? Tut Tut it was getting like Sod em and Gomorrah, well I never did.

Is this thread a wind up? It suppose it must be?

ippy

It is an assault if consent isn't given, whether you like it or not.

[Nearly Sane]

How do we know she regarded herself as a victim? Yes, she said the kiss was non consensual, but that doesn't mean she had a problem with it at the time. As far as I know, no formal complaint was made to the police.

I don't think you should be making accusations like this about other forum members without some evidence that there was anybody involved who felt they were assaulted.

So any time a woman doesn't immediately run to the police then it isn't assault? Do you really want to go down that route?

If it is non consensual then it is assault. Women who are n general in a position of less power have had to put up with this shite for centuries. In part that was what #metoo  was about. And if posters want to continue to deny them a voice then I will just point out what they are supporting. And if pointing that out about posters on here is offending you, then tough.

[ippy]

It is an assault if consent isn't given, whether you like it or not.

Like I've already said technically blowing cigarette smoke into someones face is an assault, come on L R, get real.

I wouldn't want to see someone assaulted, anyone at all, the one in the photo hardly puts that bloke on a par with Fred West and the statue was just given a stupid name.

Regards, ippy.

[jeremyp]

So any time a woman doesn't immediately run to the police then it isn't assault? Do you really want to go down that route?

What other evidence is there in this specific instance that the woman considered herself to be a victim?

If it is non consensual then it is assault. Women who are n general in a position of less power have had to put up with this shite for centuries. In part that was what #metoo  was about. And if posters want to continue to deny them a voice then I will just point out what they are supporting. And if pointing that out about posters on here is offending you, then tough.

I think it's pretty demeaning to claim somebody is a victim if she herself didn't think of it that way. Neither of us has any evidence one way or the other.

I've been kissed non consensually more than once by people of both major genders. Apparently, it's assault though and I should have gone to the police. Or maybe you should get a sense of proportion.

[Harrowby Hall]

A rye and political message for our times.

Do you think that drink was involved, then?

Or did you mean "wry"?

[ippy]

Do you think that drink was involved, then?

Or did you mean "wry"?

Looks like someone else has acquired my talent for faultless spelling.

Regards, ippy.

[Nearly Sane]

What other evidence is there in this specific instance that the woman considered herself to be a victim?

I think it's pretty demeaning to claim somebody is a victim if she herself didn't think of it that way. Neither of us has any evidence one way or the other.

I've been kissed non consensually more than once by people of both major genders. Apparently, it's assault though and I should have gone to the police. Or maybe you should get a sense of proportion.

You mean sexes? Rather than genders? And your idea that it is only assault if people go to the police is both a straw man/woman and dismissing anyone who hasn't for whatever reason.

You need to work out why you are justifying non consensual assault.

[Steve H]

Given you think that you can just dismiss  a woman as lying about sexual assault, then your advice about travel is not something I hold in high regard.

I have not accused anyone of lying. The woman who described her experience may or may not have been the woman in the photo: there was a lot of this going on. The woman has been identified as probably, but not certainly, Greta Friedman.

Greta Zimmer Friedman
Lawrence Verria and George Galdorisi, authors of The Kissing Sailor, a 2012 book about the identity of the couple, used interviews of claimants, expert photo analysis, identification of people in the background and consultations with forensic anthropologists and facial recognition specialists. They concluded that the woman was Greta Zimmer Friedman and that she was wearing her dental hygienist uniform in the photograph.[11]

"It wasn't my choice to be kissed", Friedman stated in a 2005 interview with the Library of Congress.[3] "The guy just came over and grabbed!" she said, adding, "That man was very strong. I wasn't kissing him. He was kissing me."[3][12] "I did not see him approaching, and before I know it I was in this tight grip," Friedman told CBS News in 2012.[13] Friedman died at age 92 on September 8, 2016, in Richmond, Virginia, due to age-related health complications.[14][15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-J_Day_in_Times_Square#Greta_Zimmer_Friedman.
No doubt what she described did happen to her, but, as I say, this happened more than once.

[Nearly Sane]

I have not accused anyone of lying. The woman who described her experience may or may not have been the woman in the photo: there was a lot of this going on. The woman has been identified as probably, but not certainly, Greta Friedman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-J_Day_in_Times_Square#Greta_Zimmer_Friedman.
No doubt what she described did happen to her, but, as I say, this happened more than once.

So not lying just confused. It's no wonder so many assaults are not reported.

[ProfessorDavey]

"It wasn't my choice to be kissed", Friedman stated in a 2005 interview with the Library of Congress.[3] "The guy just came over and grabbed!" she said, adding, "That man was very strong. I wasn't kissing him. He was kissing me."[3][12] "I did not see him approaching, and before I know it I was in this tight grip,"

Although I'd know this photo for years I was unaware of the back story until reading this thread. But it doesn't surprise me at all as I'd alway though the body language etc in the photo were all wrong, not what two mutually consenting about equally amorous young lovers act like when kissing each other. I can't think I've ever seen two people who are in love, or even just mutually attracted to each other, kissing in that way.

And so it proved - this was him kissing her, against her will.

And I've always felt the same about that other famous kiss photo, in Paris:

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170213-the-iconic-photo-that-symbolises-love

Which also seems unnatural, and indeed the positioning looks modelled on the earlier Times Sq photo. And so it proves - the Paris photo didn't involve two young lovers, but two actors hired for the shoot.

[Roses]

Like I've already said technically blowing cigarette smoke into someones face is an assault, come on L R, get real.

I wouldn't want to see someone assaulted, anyone at all, the one in the photo hardly puts that bloke on a par with Fred West and the statue was just given a stupid name.

Regards, ippy.

There is no technically about it, if anyone deliberately blows cigarette smoke into one's face it is an assault, especially if like my middle daughter you suffer from asthma.  Any stranger who kisses me is assaulting me.

[Steve H]

I am going to try to stop posting on this thread, becauuse it's going nowhere except round in circles, but that does not mean I'm declaring unconditional surrender. I stand by sll my previous posts. If NS, in his usual childish way, wants to get the last word with another post aimed at me, which is obviously what he's been trying to do since I first posted on this thread, he's welcome to. The fsact remains that he's being self-righteous and pharisaical.

[Aruntraveller]

The fsact remains that he's being self-righteous and pharisaical.

That's  a problematic (as well as tautological) accusation as "pharisaical" means self righteous & hypocritical. So ignoring the self-righteous tautological element, in what sense are you accusing NS of being hypocritical?

[Roses]

I am going to try to stop posting on this thread, becauuse it's going nowhere except round in circles, but that does not mean I'm declaring unconditional surrender. I stand by sll my previous posts. If NS, in his usual childish way, wants to get the last word with another post aimed at me, which is obviously what he's been trying to do since I first posted on this thread, he's welcome to. The fsact remains that he's being self-righteous and pharisaical.

There, there little one, calm down and cuddle your favourite soft toy and read the book of 66 fairy tales you love best.

[Nearly Sane]

Like I've already said technically blowing cigarette smoke into someones face is an assault, come on L R, get real.

I wouldn't want to see someone assaulted, anyone at all, the one in the photo hardly puts that bloke on a par with Fred West and the statue was just given a stupid name.

Regards, ippy.

The Fred West comparison is simply a straw man. No one has argued that. You are still supporting assault though.

[Nearly Sane]

I am going to try to stop posting on this thread, becauuse it's going nowhere except round in circles, but that does not mean I'm declaring unconditional surrender. I stand by sll my previous posts. If NS, in his usual childish way, wants to get the last word with another post aimed at me, which is obviously what he's been trying to do since I first posted on this thread, he's welcome to. The fsact remains that he's being self-righteous and pharisaical.

 I will just point out that I have not been saying that I think Steve H is a misogynist apologist for assault who thinks women shouldn't talk about such things but rather as regards sexual assault to quote Steve H 'Let's just say that I think there's a lot to be said for traditional British reserve, in this hyper-confessional age in which we live' to annoy him.  I've been posting it because I think Steve H is a misogynist apologist for assault who thinks women shouldn't talk about such things but rather as regards sexual assault to quote Steve H 'Let's just say that I think there's a lot to be said for traditional British reserve, in this hyper-confessional age in which we live'