Unconditional surrender...?

[jeremyp]

You mean sexes? Rather than genders?

Do I?

And your idea that it is only assault if people go to the police is both a straw man/woman and dismissing anyone who hasn't for whatever reason.

No, my point is that if the kissee didn't mind the kiss, even if they didn't agree to it before hand then you should stop white knighting.

You need to work out why you are justifying non consensual assault.

Nobody present at the time seemed to be quite as butt-hurt as you are now. I suggest that is a good sign that you are over-reacting.

[Nearly Sane]

Do I?
No, my point is that if the kissee didn't mind the kiss, even if they didn't agree to it before hand then you should stop white knighting.

Nobody present at the time seemed to be quite as butt-hurt as you are now. I suggest that is a good sign that you are over-reacting.

Quite the little mindreading act - if no one complains about sexual assault, then you manage to assume they are happy with it. This is the sort of reasoning that leads women not to report it.

[jeremyp]

Quite the little mindreading act

You're describing yourself with that, as much as anybody else here.

if no one complains about sexual assault, then you manage to assume they are happy with it.

I think I said neither of us has any evidence one way or the other. Let's just check...

... Oh yes, I did.

Also, I  don't assume she was happy with it, I just have no evidence to assume she felt like a victim.

This is the sort of reasoning that leads women not to report it.

I'm arguing that, if there is no evidence that somebody regards themselves as being a victim, you  shouldn't get more outraged than that person.

[Nearly Sane]

You're describing yourself with that, as much as anybody else here.
I think I said neither of us has any evidence one way or the other. Let's just check...

... Oh yes, I did.

Also, I  don't assume she was happy with it, I just have no evidence to assume she felt like a victim.

I'm arguing that, if there is no evidence that somebody regards themselves as being a victim, you  shouldn't get more outraged than that person.

We know she didn't consent so therefore it was assault. Arguing that non reporting is of any significance as you did is the attitude that leads to people being asked why didn't you report it at the time with the implication that because of that they are somehow not being truthful.

[Roses]

When I was 14 I was touched inappropriately by the pastor of our Pentecostal church, I didn't report it to the police, but that didn't mean I hadn't been assaulted.

[ippy]

When I was 14 I was touched inappropriately by the pastor of our Pentecostal church, I didn't report it to the police, but that didn't mean I hadn't been assaulted.

Terrible as that experience of yours obviously was L R, it hardly compares in even the slightest way with that photo taken on V J day 1945.

We know about the stupid name of that statue, we've been through all of that.

Regards, ippy

[Robbie]

I am going to try to stop posting on this thread, becauuse it's going nowhere except round in circles, but that does not mean I'm declaring unconditional surrender. I stand by sll my previous posts. If NS, in his usual childish way, wants to get the last word with another post aimed at me, which is obviously what he's been trying to do since I first posted on this thread, he's welcome to. The fsact remains that he's being self-righteous and pharisaical.

You bite too easily SH. By now you should have realised that one or two people suddenly go off on one and worry like a dog with a bone,it's best to leave alone until they've calmed down.

[Roses]

Terrible as that experience of yours obviously was L R, it hardly compares in even the slightest way with that photo taken on V J day 1945.

We know about the stupid name of that statue, we've been through all of that.

Regards, ippy

A woman being grabbed by a stranger in that way could be very frightening indeed. If a bloke did that to me he would really wish he hadn't.

[Roses]

You bite too easily SH. By now you should have realised that one or two people suddenly go off on one and worry like a dog with a bone,it's best to leave alone until they've calmed down.

It is SteveH who has gone off on one if you read his posts!

[jeremyp]

We know she didn't consent so therefore it was assault.

Technically it is assault (at least it is now, I don't know what courts at the time would have decided). But the point is that the woman involved made no fuss about it, neither did anybody else. Therefore your crusade is an over reaction in this case.

Arguing that non reporting is of any significance as you did

Of course non reporting is of significance when determining if somebody feels they are a victim of a crime. It's not a guarantee of lack of victimhood, but it's all we've got in this case.

is the attitude that leads to people being asked why didn't you report it at the time

Ah, the fallacy of adverse consequences.

Anyway, it's a reasonable question to ask. The problem is not in the asking the question, but in using the lack of prompt reporting as an excuse not to treat the case seriously. Had Greta Zimmer Friedman ever reported it as an assault at any time in the subsequent 71 years, I'd be with you on this. Had she even said she felt like she had been violated, I'd be with you.

[Robbie]

It is SteveH who has gone off on one if you read his posts!

I've read every post on this thread some more than once.

Jeremy's post above mine is balanced in my opinion.

[ippy]

A woman being grabbed by a stranger in that way could be very frightening indeed. If a bloke did that to me he would really wish he hadn't.

In almost any other set of circumstances I would have no option other than having to agree with you but in this particular case I really can't see whatever it is you're going on about.

In the circumstances of that particular time and that occasion this photo doesn't convey anything like the words you're using to describe this event, which is to me, perfectly normal, cheeky, acceptable, behaviour when surrounded by such obvious joy, occasioned by such an unusual one off and outstanding historical event of that day and times.

I don't get whatever it is you're on about L R, I think you are utterly and completely wrong about the photograph and no I would never condone any person sexually assaulting a women, as is the very idea of sexual assault against the women in my family for whom I have so much respect is an anathema to me.

The statue name was either stupidity or the sculptor seeking notoriety and publicity, my guess would be the latter.

Regards, ippy

[Roses]

In almost any other set of circumstances I would have no option other than having to agree with you but in this particular case I really can't see whatever it is you're going on about.

In the circumstances of that particular time and that occasion this photo doesn't convey anything like the words you're using to describe this event, which is to me, perfectly normal, cheeky, acceptable, behaviour when surrounded by such obvious joy, occasioned by such an unusual one off and outstanding historical event of that day and times.

I don't get whatever it is you're on about L R, I think you are utterly and completely wrong about the photograph and no I would never condone any person sexually assaulting a women, as is the very idea of sexual assault against the women in my family for whom I have so much respect is an anathema to me.

The statue name was either stupidity or the sculptor seeking notoriety and publicity, my guess would be the latter.

Regards, ippy

I certainly don't see it your way at all, there is no excuse for that guy's behaviour, whatever the circumstances.

[ippy]

I certainly don't see it your way at all, there is no excuse for that guy's behaviour, whatever the circumstances.

Well I'll have to leave it there L R, where I think you're 100% wrong with your analysis of that, lovely evocative of the day to me, photograph. 

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

Well I'll have to leave it there L R, where I think you're 100% wrong with your analysis of that, lovely evocative of the day to me, photograph. 

Regards, ippy.

I see nothing lovely about that photo, where a guy appears to be forcing himself on a woman.

[ippy]

I see nothing lovely about that photo, where a guy appears to be forcing himself on a woman.

Nonsense!

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

Nonsense!

Regards, ippy.

Further more, I think that awful statue might give the male of the species the idea that it is ok to force himself on a woman in that way. I know you disagree, but TOUGH!

[Walter]

remember, Saney is a pacifist . He will only do his 'white knighting' from the safety of his armchair 

[ippy]

Further more, I think that awful statue might give the male of the species the idea that it is ok to force himself on a woman in that way. I know you disagree, but TOUGH!

I specifically referred to the original photograph and how many times do I have to comment on that attention seeking stupid misguiding name given to that statue.

The stupid misguiding name given to that statue completely distorts the mind set of any viewer and has had the effect of completely altering the meaning of now both of the objects in the mind of the observer in many cases.

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

I specifically referred to the original photograph and how many times do I have to comment on that attention seeking stupid misguiding name given to that statue.

The stupid misguiding name given to that statue completely distorts the mind set of any viewer and has had the effect of completely altering the meaning of now both of the objects in the mind of the observer in many cases.

Regards, ippy.

I have seen the original photo and it looks like an assault to me. He held the woman in such a way it would have been very hard for her to resist his unwanted attention.

[ProfessorDavey]

I specifically referred to the original photograph ...

Then look again, and in particular look at the clenched fist of the woman. This isn't someone enjoying a kiss - it is someone dealing with an unwanted incident. There is a photo taken probably just after the most famous one where the clenched fist of the woman is pushing against the man's cheek - she is trying to push him off. I've seen plenty of people lovingly place the palm of their hand against their lover's cheek - never someone pushing them away with a clenched fist.

[Nearly Sane]

Then look again, and in particular look at the clenched fist of the woman. This isn't someone enjoying a kiss - it is someone dealing with an unwanted incident. There is a photo taken probably just after the most famous one where the clenched fist of the woman is pushing against the man's cheek - she is trying to push him off. I've seen plenty of people lovingly place the palm of their hand against their lover's cheek - never someone pushing them away with a clenched fist.

And of course we have the comments of the woman who was probably the one in the picture that the kiss was non consensual, and would therefore be assault.

[ProfessorDavey]

And of course we have the comments of the woman who was probably the one in the picture that the kiss was non consensual, and would therefore be assault.

The comments of the woman and the various photos of the incident are completely consistent - whether or not we wish to describe it as an assault - what we are seeing is a man kissing an unwilling woman who is trying to extract herself from the situation.

On the discussion about her not reporting it or needing to understand the time, we should reflect that there is a difference between something that was accepted at a particular time and whether that was acceptable. I would suggest that a man forcing himself on a woman by kissing her without her agreement was certainly accepted at the time, however it is not and was not acceptable.

[Roses]

As has been said before, in times past men thought it acceptable to touch a woman in a way, which is deemed inappropriate these days, and rightly so.

[ProfessorDavey]

As has been said before, in times past men thought it acceptable to touch a woman in a way, which is deemed inappropriate these days, and rightly so.

And my point is that although it was accepted at the time it was never acceptable.

There are plenty of similar examples from the past.