Author Topic: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.  (Read 7579 times)

Steve H

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Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« on: August 23, 2020, 06:14:36 PM »
I've just read, in the 'New Humanist', a review of a book called 'O, Let Me Not Get Alzheimer's, Sweet Heaven!', by a retired medical doctor called Colin Brewer, which discusses this issue. The difference between the two, as I understand it, is who performs the final act: if a doctor gives a patient a lethal drug, and the patient swallows it, that's assisted suicide, but if the doctor injects the lethal drug into the patient's vein, that's euthanasia. If life support is withdrawn at the patient's request, and the patient is an adult who is mentally capable, that is neither, and is already legal in the UK. I stand to be corrected on the preceding, provided the correcter knows what they're talking about, and provides evidence.
The review discusses the argument made by opposers that vulnerable people may be pressurised into requesting euthanasia or assisted suicide, but says that there is very little evidence from countries and regions that have already legalised it that that happens, and makes the interesting point that pressure in the opposite direction may also happen: people who'd rather be dead being pressurised to hang on to the bitter end.
It also seems to me that many opponents argue dishonestly; they come out with the argument just mentioned, because they know ordinary people are more likely to be persuaded by seemingly pragmatic, utilitarian arguments, but the real reason for their opposition is religious.
OK, let the argy-bargy begin.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

ippy

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2020, 06:21:49 PM »
I've just read, in the 'New Humanist', a review of a book called 'O, Let Me Not Get Alzheimer's, Sweet Heaven!', by a retired medical doctor called Colin Brewer, which discusses this issue. The difference between the two, as I understand it, is who performs the final act: if a doctor gives a patient a lethal drug, and the patient swallows it, that's assisted suicide, but if the doctor injects the lethal drug into the patient's vein, that's euthanasia. If life support is withdrawn at the patient's request, and the patient is an adult who is mentally capable, that is neither, and is already legal in the UK. I stand to be corrected on the preceding, provided the correcter knows what they're talking about, and provides evidence.
The review discusses the argument made by opposers that vulnerable people may be pressurised into requesting euthanasia or assisted suicide, but says that there is very little evidence from countries and regions that have already legalised it that that happens, and makes the interesting point that pressure in the opposite direction may also happen: people who'd rather be dead being pressurised to hang on to the bitter end.
It also seems to me that many opponents argue dishonestly; they come out with the argument just mentioned, because they know ordinary people are more likely to be persuaded by seemingly pragmatic, utilitarian arguments, but the real reason for their opposition is religious.
OK, let the argy-bargy begin.

Another area where those in power are wilfully ignoring the wishes of the large majority of the UK's population.

Roses

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2020, 06:33:05 PM »
I am of the opinion that everyone of sound mind should be able to opt for assisted suicide in the event of them getting dementia or having a terminal illness. The medic should be able to administer the lethal dose by pills or injection, as long as they have written permission to do so.

When my father was in terrible pain suffering from terminal prostate cancer, my sisters and I requested that the doctor upped his painkiller dose so our father would die peacefully. Our request was granted and he died within hours of this happening.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Gordon

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2020, 06:35:13 PM »
For me anyway the core question is, to quote the title of a well-know play: who's life is it anyway?

My answer is that it's essentially my life, though others may have a casual interest in it, and provided my mental faculties (such as they are) remain intact then it remains my life: currently I'm quite keen on preserving it 'as is'.

To anyone who says it isn't my life, or tells me that it is 'God's', I say to them that they can go fuck off.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2020, 07:11:42 PM »
Another area where those in power are wilfully ignoring the wishes of the large majority of the UK's population.
Argumentum ad populum.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2020, 07:13:03 PM »
I am of the opinion that everyone of sound mind should be able to opt for assisted suicide in the event of them getting dementia or having a terminal illness. The medic should be able to administer the lethal dose by pills or injection, as long as they have written permission to do so.

When my father was in terrible pain suffering from terminal prostate cancer, my sisters and I requested that the doctor upped his painkiller dose so our father would die peacefully. Our request was granted and he died within hours of this happening.
So you asked the doctor to break the law - doesn't that make you 'scum'?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2020, 08:08:45 PM »
Probably to some posters surprise I am very cautious on this issue. I can see that in an ideal system with plenty of checks and balances that this sounds like a humane, decent thing - euthanasia that is.

Why then do I feel uneasy? Probably because I don't trust our system of government to do the hard work to enable those checks and balances to be put in place. If they do it, they'll farm it out to some friends who run non-existent ferries or who have stocks of non-existent PPE and let them come up with a system.

There is though more to it than that, I don't feel comfortable with a system that hastens peoples death. I know all the arguments - if they were sane when they declared their wishes, if they are in horrendous pain, if they are suffering from terrible life sapping dementia, then why not, you ask?

And I don't have an answer for you - other than it doesn't feel right to me. I know that's not logical or rational and as a non-religious type I certainly don't hold with it being an offence against God, but I don't like it and it worries me because I can see it being open to abuse due to the laissez faire attitude current governments adopt concerning most issues 

There's something else, however, a gut feeling I can't shake that it is on some very basic level of humanity, wrong.

It makes little sense to me, so I expect it to make even less to any of you. There it is.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2020, 08:13:02 PM »
I understand Trentyoyager's position and there is no easy answer but telling someone they have to suffer pain and degradation because you don't trust others....

Steve H

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2020, 09:20:26 PM »
Argumentum ad populum.
No, it isn't. In a democracy, the fact that a large majority want something, while not trumping every other consideration, is a valid argument.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2020, 09:24:06 PM »
No, it isn't. In a democracy, the fact that a large majority want something, while not trumping every other consideration, is a valid argument.
Doesn't matter if it is a democracy or not. There is no argument that is made better simply by numbers. If a democracy voted that the world was flat would it be a valid argument? 

Steve H

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2020, 09:35:33 PM »
Doesn't matter if it is a democracy or not. There is no argument that is made better simply by numbers. If a democracy voted that the world was flat would it be a valid argument?
No, of course not, and if euthanasia is a bad idea, it's still a bad idea even if the great majority want it, but the point of democracy is not that it produces the best government and laws possible, but that it produces the government and laws that a country deserves, because they voted for it.
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2020, 09:37:40 PM »
No, of course not, and if euthanasia is a bad idea, it's still a bad idea even if the great majority want it, but the point of democracy is not that it produces the best government and laws possible, but that it produces the government and laws that a country deserves, because they voted for it.
So simply saying the majority of people want something gives exactly no value to the argument being right.

Steve H

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2020, 09:39:35 PM »
So simply saying the majority of people want something gives exactly no value to the argument being right.
[Sigh...] Well, obviously. Can we now get back to debating euthanasia and assisted suicide, please?
I came to realise that every time we recognise something human in creatures, we are also recognising something creaturely in ourselves. That is central to the rejection of human supremacism as the pernicious doctrine it is.
Robert Macfarlane

BeRational

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2020, 09:41:14 PM »
So simply saying the majority of people want something gives exactly no value to the argument being right.

Surely the difference is that the question of the Earth being flat is a matter of fact.
The other is a measure of peoples subjective opinion on a question.
If  most people think in a particular way, then it is a fact that that opinion currently is most popular.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2020, 09:43:02 PM »
[Sigh...] Well, obviously. Can we now get back to debating euthanasia and assisted suicide, please?
Which means when ippy mentioned it, I was correct in pointing out that it was an ad populum. And we still are discussing the arguments on this because all I pointed out was that it was an invalid argument - something you agree with.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2020, 09:44:10 PM »
Surely the difference is that the question of the Earth being flat is a matter of fact.
The other is a measure of peoples subjective opinion on a question.
If  most people think in a particular way, then it is a fact that that opinion currently is most popular.
Which exactly illustrates why the numbers of people who believe anything is an invalid argument. 

BeRational

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2020, 09:45:42 PM »
Which exactly illustrates why the numbers of people who believe anything is an invalid argument.

Why?

If you want to measure opinion, then it's perfect.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2020, 09:46:53 PM »
Why?

If you want to measure opinion, then it's perfect.
and if you want to argue that something is 'right', it's worthless. It isn't an argument.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2020, 09:47:41 PM »
For me anyway the core question is, to quote the title of a well-know play: who's life is it anyway?

My answer is that it's essentially my life, though others may have a casual interest in it, and provided my mental faculties (such as they are) remain intact then it remains my life: currently I'm quite keen on preserving it 'as is'.

To anyone who says it isn't my life, or tells me that it is 'God's', I say to them that they can go fuck off.
I agree with you Gordon. You are at liberty to claim your life as your own. In fact it is so your own and not anybody elses the idea of finding someone else to end it for you is IMHO contradictory.

Your life, you end it.

BeRational

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2020, 09:48:38 PM »
and if you want to argue that something is 'right', it's worthless. It isn't an argument.

Agreed.

But it has used in other areas just not when you are talking about facts.
For opinions they are perfect.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

BeRational

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2020, 09:49:57 PM »
I agree with you Gordon. You are at liberty to claim your life as your own. In fact it is so your own and not anybody elses the idea of finding someone else to end it for you is IMHO contradictory.

Your life, you end it.

What if you are no longer able to do it, but you can register your request for it to be done.

I cannot fill my teeth but I can request it
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2020, 09:50:37 PM »
I agree with you Gordon. You are at liberty to claim your life as your own. In fact it is so your own and not anybody elses the idea of finding someone else to end it for you is IMHO contradictory.

Your life, you end it.
And if you can't? And you might need help. You just say to someone begging to have the pain and denigration stopped tgat you want them to suffer that. That you think it is good for them to be in pain.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2020, 09:51:47 PM »
Agreed.

But it has used in other areas just not when you are talking about facts.
For opinions they are perfect.
But is not in itself an argument, so as ippy used it is exactly an an ad pop fallacy.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2020, 09:57:19 PM »
And if you can't? And you might need help. You just say to someone begging to have the pain and denigration stopped tgat you want them to suffer that. That you think it is good for them to be in pain.
If it is too late, it is too late it is your life, you have claimed it. I would administer painkiller.

I didn't think you minded a bit of denigration?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Euthanasia and assisted suicide.
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2020, 10:08:26 PM »
If it is too late, it is too late it is your life, you have claimed it. I would administer painkiller.

I didn't think you minded a bit of denigration?
Your inability to deal with argument is tedious. Ippy's post was an ad pop. You have already agreed that