Imposing their views

[Free Willy]

Alternatively: Every society indoctrinates it's youth with the values of that society. A faith school cannot help itself indoctrinating religious values.

Not arguing with that Gordon. That doesn't let humanist schools of the hook as humanism is a non religious faith with a creed.

Some may also class Humanism as a religion as defined as groups which think they have a right to be included in thought for the day.

[Free Willy]

TBH, I'm not really sure about the difference. Values are subjective and this seems to imply that if the society's values were religious it's ok to reach them in schools.

Vlad's statement that a secular school must end up teaching humanist  values shows his ongoing confusion about what secular means. A secular school could use any number of values rather than humanist.

Have to disagree. If we follow the principle that we have to follow the   the money.then we might conclude that Humanists don't found schools because they know full well that the state will provide them with the type of school they want.

[Gordon]

Not arguing with that Gordon. That doesn't let humanist schools of the hook as humanism is a non religious faith with a creed.

Are here specifically humanist schools?

Some may also class Humanism as a religion as defined as groups which think they have a right to be included in thought for the day.

Who specifcally classes humanism, which as far as I'm aware is a philosophical position, as a religion - and on what basis do they argue this?

[Nearly Sane]

Have to disagree. If we follow the principle that we have to follow the   the money.then we might conclude that Humanists don't found schools because they know full well that the state will provide them with the type of school they want.

So in following the money to show Humanist involvement in schools, you are using a new follow the no money rule.


And all of that is a non sequitur to your continued ignorance about what secular means.

[Steve H]

humanism is a non religious faith with a creed.

No it isn't. if you think it has a creed, please quote it.

[Free Willy]

No it isn't. if you think it has a creed, please quote it.

I find credal statements in humanist statements such as "You can be good without God" " Freedom of religion, freedom from religion" and "For the ONE life we have".

Their is no doubt that it is a world view and Secular Humanists are found as celebrants at Births, marriages and funerals and as chaplains in hospitals thus representing spirituality.

[jeremyp]

No it isn't. if you think it has a creed, please quote it.

I think I'd describe humanism as a non faith religion, rather than a non religion faith.

That's assuming that you can have a religion without deities, which I think you can.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think I'd describe humanism as a non faith religion, rather than a non religion faith.

That's assuming that you can have a religion without deities, which I think you can.

I think humanism is more an ethical philosophy than a religion.

I agree that religions don't necessarily need deities, although most do. However religions typically involve ritualistic practice, which are institutionalised. I don't see any fundamental ritualistic practice in humanism, although you can have humanistic 'life event' ceremonies, but that isn't really the same thing.

So, while you can have a religion (ritualistic practice) without deities, and you can believe in deities without subscribing to a religion - I think if you have neither deities nor ritualistic practice, then you don't have a religion.

[Nearly Sane]

I think humanism is more an ethical philosophy than a religion.

I agree that religions don't necessarily need deities, although most do. However religions typically involve ritualistic practice, which are institutionalised. I don't see any fundamental ritualistic practice in humanism, although you can have humanistic 'life event' ceremonies, but that isn't really the same thing.

So, while you can have a religion (ritualistic practice) without deities, and you can believe in deities without subscribing to a religion - I think if you have neither deities nor ritualistic practice, then you don't have a religion.

and yet I have been to a humanist wedding

[Steve H]

As some wag put it, "Humanism is a religion the way not stamp collecting is a hobby"

[Free Willy]

As some wag put it, "Humanism is a religion the way not stamp collecting is a hobby"

Confuses straight atheism which gets by without celebrating anything with Secular humanism which seeks to celebrate more and more of the spiritual aspects of humanity much akin to deity free forms of Buddhism in that respect. Remember, British Humanism is ‘For the one life we have’....a statement which actually and deliberately jockeys with other religious views of the afterlife for attention.

[Sriram]

Humanism as a philosophy is one thing.

But if there is a community of people who believe that humanism is the one and only correct way to think and live and they also believe in imposing their way of thinking on others....then it becomes a religion.

For that matter, even scientism can be considered a religion because of the fanatical  manner in which some people impose their rigid views on others.

[Nearly Sane]

Humanism as a philosophy is one thing.

But if there is a community of people who believe that humanism is the one and only correct way to think and live and they also believe in imposing their way of thinking on others....then it becomes a religion.

For that matter, even scientism can be considered a religion because of the fanatical  manner in which some people impose their rigid views on others.

Who are these 'scientism' people?

[Gordon]

Confuses straight atheism which gets by without celebrating anything with Secular humanism which seeks to celebrate more and more of the spiritual aspects of humanity much akin to deity free forms of Buddhism in that respect. Remember, British Humanism is ‘For the one life we have’....a statement which actually and deliberately jockeys with other religious views of the afterlife for attention.

So, what are these "spiritual aspects of humanity" then that don't involve dieties or supernatural agents?

[Free Willy]

So, what are these "spiritual aspects of humanity" then that don't involve dieties or supernatural agents?

Firstly, the willingness to offer CELEBRANTS to celebrate Births, deaths and marriages including chaplaincy services because there's no real need as someone as harshly aspiritual as yourself should understand.

By choosing to celebrate and mark these great moments in one's life one is accepting that there is something greater than human will, in the case of Humanism this is the great force of nature only realised at certain moments. This is what many would call human spirituality and British Humanists by having celebrants and chaplains recognised that another talented human is better than a mere protocol or questionnaire to mediate these moments.

So I move that although no God's or supernatural entity is invoked, spirituality is still celebrated.

The definition of spirituality as necessitating God's or supernatural entities comes from folks like yourself ....and we're not obliged to accept your definition.

[Free Willy]

Who are these 'scientism' people?

Can I hazard......New Atheists?

[Nearly Sane]

Can I hazard......New Atheists?

Who are? How is their 'scientism' manifested?

[Gordon]

Firstly, the willingness to offer CELEBRANTS to celebrate Births, deaths and marriages including chaplaincy services because there's no real need as someone as harshly aspiritual as yourself should understand.

By choosing to celebrate and mark these great moments in one's life one is accepting that there is something greater than human will, in the case of Humanism this is the great force of nature only realised at certain moments. This is what many would call human spirituality and British Humanists by having celebrants and chaplains recognised that another talented human is better than a mere protocol or questionnaire to mediate these moments.

What you are describing sounds like aspects of human behaviour - I get that, in the same way that I get that some people enjoy certain sports and develop routines and rituals around these. But what are these 'spiritual' elements that you tell me humanists possess and how are these different from everyday human thoughts are feelings?

From what I can see of the list in the link below what you describe as spiritual are just attributes of people.

https://www.humanism.scot/what-we-do/what-is-humanism/

So I move that although no God's or supernatural entity is invoked, spirituality is still celebrated.

The definition of spirituality as necessitating God's or supernatural entities comes from folks like yourself ....and we're not obliged to accept your definition.

I'm not defining it - that is what I've asked you to do.

[Free Willy]

What you are describing sounds like aspects of human behaviour - I get that, in the same way that I get that some people enjoy certain sports and develop routines and rituals around these. But what are these 'spiritual' elements that you tell me humanists possess and how are these different from everyday human thoughts are feelings?

From what I can see of the list in the link below what you describe as spiritual are just attributes of people.

https://www.humanism.scot/what-we-do/what-is-humanism/

I'm not defining it - that is what I've asked you to do.

But unless you have a birth , death or marriage everyday these
are not everyday experiences.

Put another way, most of our lives are spent as intellectual and rational observers in quotidian situations. There are moments where we are forced out of this mode into a more participatory and experiential  role where we are unable to remain aloof.

Similarly sport, hobbies etc are also ecstatic, they bring us out of ourselves and our observer role.

That is the human spirit because it is not fully described by reason or science.

Scottish Humanism? The idea makes me shudder a bit since I have images of a horrendous mashup of Calvinism and the worse elements of the Scottish enlightenment.

[Sriram]

Who are these 'scientism' people?

People who believe that the methods of science are the only way to understand reality..

[jeremyp]

and yet I have been to a humanist wedding

Does that make it a religion? I've never been to one, so I don't know what it involves.

I do think the gap between "ethical philosophy" and religion is somewhat blurred, but, to me, humanism does seem to have some of the trappings of religion.

[jeremyp]

As some wag put it, "Humanism is a religion the way not stamp collecting is a hobby"

No that's atheism.

[jeremyp]

People who believe that the methods of science are the only way to understand reality..

Well they are.

Your religion may offer a model of the World, but the only way to find out if it is correct is to compare it with reality. That's pretty obvious. How else can you be confident that you are right?

[Nearly Sane]

Does that make it a religion? I've never been to one, so I don't know what it involves.

I do think the gap between "ethical philosophy" and religion is somewhat blurred, but, to me, humanism does seem to have some of the trappings of religion.

It felt religious to me. There was lots of stuff about nature and spirituality and balance that left me with a feeling of woo woo.

 

[Free Willy]

Well they are.

Your religion may offer a model of the World, but the only way to find out if it is correct is to compare it with reality. That's pretty obvious. How else can you be confident that you are right?

Argument from a particular definition. I think that is essentially circular and certainly fallacious.

It gives rise that other suspect idea that something is the best way.