Rugby World Cup 2019

[ippy]

Wears me out this world cup rugby I can't sit down to watch it and have scored so many tries for England all without leaving my living room and I don't get any recognition for my hard works.

The ITV commentary is better than the BBC's they haven't got that intensely irritating squeaky voiced Welsh git, I'm not bothered about the Welsh, it's him I've tried the radio 5 live commentary that unfortunately the voice doesn't sync, all I've got left is the mute button or subtitles and turn him off.

How about a kidnap until the games're over? How old is he?

Regards, ippy.

[jeremyp]

Despite the current ranking that have variously had NH sides top I think the SH teams tend to rise to the occasion of the world cup.

I think this is fundamentally because they are better sides, but there are two other factors to play to their favour. First they tend to be better prepared and more 'tournament fit' not least because that have recently come through their own competitive tournament, while the NH side have had nothing competitive since March. Secondly I think they travel better - don't forget that in a standard 4 nations rugby championship the SH teams have to travel effectively to the other side of the globe to compete, while the NH sides at most play a couple of hours flight away in Italy.

With this tournament being in Japan all the leading sides will have considerable travel/adjustment and I suspect the SH sides will do this better as they have much greater experience in this respect.

I agree with your first point, but by the time the knock out stages come around, everybody will have played four competitive matches in Japan. If the NH sides that make it to the QFs aren't match fit and adjusted to the environment by then, they will deserve what they get.

[ProfessorDavey]

I agree with your first point, but by the time the knock out stages come around, everybody will have played four competitive matches in Japan. If the NH sides that make it to the QFs aren't match fit and adjusted to the environment by then, they will deserve what they get.

A number of those group stage games will be against minnows, so although part of a competitive tournament, not very competitive as matches.

The SH sides have just come out of a competitive tournament that took place from late July to mid August, involving the best teams in the world and involving significant travel and adjustment to traveling across the world to play. Perfect preparation for the world cup. The NH sides haven't played competitively since March and their warm up games were played at the same 'home or just down the road' stadiums as the 6 nations. Not great preparation.

[ProfessorDavey]

See that Robert Howley has been sent home over alleged betting breaches

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49737691

Not good preparation for Wales

[jeremyp]

A number of those group stage games will be against minnows, so although part of a competitive tournament, not very competitive as matches.

I'm not so sure. England's group contains Argentina, Wales' group contains Fiji. Scotland's and Ireland's group contains Japan (home advantage) and Samoa. Many of those matches will be hard.

The SH sides have just come out of a competitive tournament that took place from late July to mid August,

You said that once already. It doesn't negate my point.

[jeremyp]

See that Robert Howley has been sent home over alleged betting breaches

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49737691

Not good preparation for Wales

I think that's an understatement.

I find it hard to believe a coach would do such a thing at such a critical time, so I'm guessing that he'll turn out to be innocent.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think that's an understatement.

I find it hard to believe a coach would do such a thing at such a critical time, so I'm guessing that he'll turn out to be innocent.

There are a couple of occasions in the past where major tournament performances have been overtaken by 'scandals' completely distracting from the performance - most notably in football in 1970 for England and 1978 for Scotland. Let's hope this isn't what is in store for Wales - frankly if the allegations are true this is naive in the extreme at best. What would possess a professional coach to risk the stable preparation of their team for the biggest tournament in this manner.

[Nearly Sane]

There are a couple of occasions in the past where major tournament performances have been overtaken by 'scandals' completely distracting from the performance - most notably in football in 1970 for England and 1978 for Scotland. Let's hope this isn't what is in store for Wales - frankly if the allegations are true this is naive in the extreme at best. What would possess a professional coach to risk the stable preparation of their team for the biggest tournament in this manner.

Not sure that the scandal in 70 'completely distracted' from England's performance at the WC  the images of Banks' save and Moore and Pele swapping shirts are iconic, and I only wish that it had for Scotland in 78.

Agree  that if true, it's at best utterly stupid.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not sure that the scandal in 70 'completely distracted' from England's performance at the WC  the images of Banks' save and Moore and Pele swapping shirts are iconic,

Yes probably the case for 1970 although I don't think that the whole Moore incident helped their preparations one iota. Hugely distracting. Lets not forget he was their captain and talisman.

... and I only wish that it had for Scotland in 78.

Was a disaster from start to finish - there was a  fantastic documentary on it a few months ago.

But there is perhaps an underlying 'truth' in both England 70 and Scotland 78 - both involved teams who thought they were better than they were and therefore weren't ruthlessly professional in their preparation and approach. Had they been neither the Moore incident nor any one of the off field nightmares that beset the Scotland 78 team would have occurred. Pride comes before a fall. And there are plenty of Wales fans who genuinely think they are going to win the world up - my Facebook feed was full of them when they (for a few days) attained number one status in the world a couple of weeks ago. Are we seeing something similar - who knows?

Agree  that if true, it's at best utterly stupid.

See above

[jeremyp]

There are a couple of occasions in the past where major tournament performances have been overtaken by 'scandals' completely distracting from the performance - most notably in football in 1970 for England and 1978 for Scotland. Let's hope this isn't what is in store for Wales - frankly if the allegations are true this is naive in the extreme at best. What would possess a professional coach to risk the stable preparation of their team for the biggest tournament in this manner.

If this is the extent of the problems i.e. they don't find out other people were involved, it'll all be forgotten by the end of the tournament when Wales either win or destroy their fans' dreams. Perhaps that is why the WRU moved so quickly - to get it out of the way before everything kicks off.

[ProfessorDavey]

If this is the extent of the problems i.e. they don't find out other people were involved, it'll all be forgotten by the end of the tournament when Wales either win or destroy their fans' dreams. Perhaps that is why the WRU moved so quickly - to get it out of the way before everything kicks off.

Not sure how quick is appropriate, but I'm not convinced they moved especially quickly as I gather the WRU knew about this last Wednesday and Howley was only sent home yesterday - so 6 days.

I've no idea whether it would have been appropriate to have acted quicker, and I think this came to light as the team were flying to Japan, but I can't imaging this wont have had an effect on the top management of the team over the past few days, even if the actually players knew nothing until yesterday.

[jeremyp]

There are a couple of occasions in the past where major tournament performances have been overtaken by 'scandals' completely distracting from the performance - most notably in football in 1970 for England and 1978 for Scotland. Let's hope this isn't what is in store for Wales - frankly if the allegations are true this is naive in the extreme at best. What would possess a professional coach to risk the stable preparation of their team for the biggest tournament in this manner.

What was the 1978 scandal? All I remember was everybody going absolutely bonkers about Scotland qualifying (when England didn't) and then them not doing very well. I was 12 at the time.

[Nearly Sane]

What was the 1978 scandal? All I remember was everybody going absolutely bonkers about Scotland qualifying (when England didn't) and then them not doing very well. I was 12 at the time.

Willie Johnston and the pills

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2008/dec/23/rangers-celtic

[ProfessorDavey]

Willie Johnston and the pills

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2008/dec/23/rangers-celtic

This may be the documentary - although doesn't seem to be available as current content.

If so it is fascinating. The whole thing was a car wreck start to finish, regardless of wee Willie Johnston and the pills. The team were woefully underprepared both in terms of their knowledge and respect for the opposition but also the professionalism of their preparation with, I think, their base being totally unsuited because no one had properly checked it out.

You can feel the slow relentless momentum in ever so slow motion toward the car wreck moments on the field.

[ProfessorDavey]

If this is the extent of the problems i.e. they don't find out other people were involved, it'll all be forgotten by the end of the tournament when Wales either win or destroy their fans' dreams.

It will certainly be forgotten if Wales win, but not if they fail to live up to expectations (whatever they may be). Regardless of whether this incident really had an effect (it has to be distracting at the very least) it will form part of the narrative around the post mortem of a failed world cup bid. The kind of 'had it not been for Howley, we'd have won' mentality.

We've seen it so many times before - the 'Beckham pulled out of the tackle against Brazil because he was still recovering from the metatarsal injury and that lead to the goal that knocked us out' mentality. That was 2002 by the way.

[Nearly Sane]

This may be the documentary - although doesn't seem to be available as current content.

If so it is fascinating. The whole thing was a car wreck start to finish, regardless of wee Willie Johnston and the pills. The team were woefully underprepared both in terms of their knowledge and respect for the opposition but also the professionalism of their preparation with, I think, their base being totally unsuited because no one had properly checked it out.

You can feel the slow relentless momentum in ever so slow motion toward the car wreck moments on the field.

  And yet it left us with Archie Gemmill's goal.

[ProfessorDavey]

  And yet it left us with Archie Gemmill's goal.

Indeed - and essential for the complete arch of the narrative, from pride and hubris to despair and humbling with a little glimmer of redemption at the end. Not enough to reverse the pathos of the story, but enough to give some hope

[ProfessorDavey]

  And yet it left us with Archie Gemmill's goal.

Just watched it again - a really great goal.

[Nearly Sane]

Just watched it again - a really great goal.

one of the best. One of the lovely thing about it is is if you listen to  the BBC commentary is  Bobby Charlton excited by it.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed - and essential for the complete arch of the narrative, from pride and hubris to despair and humbling with a little glimmer of redemption at the end. Not enough to reverse the pathos of the story, but enough to give some hope

it's a beautiful  story.

[ProfessorDavey]

So the World Cup kicks off today - but looking at the fixtures what strikes me is what a long drawn out affair it is. The final isn't until 2nd Nov - so 43 days.

Compare that with this year's cricket world cup (complete in similar days despite the teams playing far more games), and last year's world cup with more teams, far more games yet complete in just 31 days.

[Nearly Sane]

Surely the length is a factor of the perceived need for longer recovery time?

[ProfessorDavey]

Surely the length is a factor of the perceived need for longer recovery time?

In part - also due to the group stage having an odd number of team in each group so there is always one team not playing in any 'round' of matches. We don't actually get to the sharp end of the tournament, the knock out stages, for basically a month. The football world cup was effectively complete start to finish in a month.

And I think the key word in your post is 'perceived' and actually part of the excitement and challenge of tournament sport is that games come thick and fast and one of the aspects that defines winning teams is their strength in depth and ability to deal with those rapid fire games. I simply don't buy into this notion that rugby players need a week to recover. Other sports that are just as demanding don't come close to that. In tennis you can play a gruelling 5 hour match and be expected to be back on court the next day. In cycling you might cycle hundreds of km and up a couple of mountains, be half dead at the end, and be back on your bike doing it again next day.

[Nearly Sane]

But neither of those are full contact sports.

[ProfessorDavey]

But neither of those are full contact sports.

True - but I don't think that necessarily explains the differences in recovery time allowed. Interestingly I was reading an article on team sports recovery time and that indicated that recovery from football and rugby were longer than for other team sports, yet effectively the same as each other, with 48 hours minimum needed. Doesn't explain why footballers are routinely expected to play every 4 days in a major tournament, yet somehow rugby players need 6-7 days. It makes no sense.