Author Topic: Homeopathy!  (Read 19214 times)

Sriram

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2016, 05:37:11 AM »
Hi everyone,

1. The idea of the OP was precisely to highlight the research done by some eminent scientists in proving that homeopathy works.

2. Merely asserting that homeopathy does not work is blind skepticism.

3. Commenting against homeopathy is a matter of affiliation. Some people just want to be seen speaking against it regardless of whether they have actually had any experience with it at all.

4. Dismissing it as placebo is meaningless because no one knows how placebo actually works.

5. Infant and animal illnesses treated successfully prove that homeopathy cannot be just placebo. Dismissing these cases as due to confirmation bias on the part of parents and animal owners is a case of confirmation bias itself.

6. How homeopathy works is of secondary importance as long as it works. And that fact has ample evidence in the form of millions/billions of satisfied patients around the world.

7. Some cases of research that try to establish that homeopathy does not work is clearly about confirmation bias.  And we have seen in cases like the Cholesterol controversy that clinical trials and medical opinion can be pretty messed up.

Just some thoughts.

Sriram
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 05:40:25 AM by Sriram »

SusanDoris

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2016, 06:32:09 AM »
Sriram

Please read 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre, particularly the section on homeopathic "medicine".

I notice that your post does not quote any work that provides a proper scientific Theory.
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ippy

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2016, 09:47:38 AM »
It might be a good idea to write down all of the various homeopathic cures for various ailments on to a card system and then some kind of exotic bird with psychic powers, of course, was trained to pick cards from this system, with the prospective patient present, then use whatever cure on the card chosen is used to aid this victim, sorry patient, to recover from whatever may have been wrong with them.

I've seen this method used for reading horoscopes, now where did I see that practice being used and what country did the people involved come from?

Now if the above methods were used when administering homeopathy it would certainly boost the already enormous amount of confidence I have in homeopathy, way beyond the placebo, as it would no doubt boost JP's confidence too.

What is it Siriam? This brave new word frightens you, so you're trying to get back to your roots, a bit like going back to that worn out, leaky but comfortable pair of old shoes?

ippy

ippy

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2016, 09:52:04 AM »
No homeopathist ever administered a known lethal poison - not even someone a stupid as JeremyP and SqueakyVoice believe homeopathists to be would, without deliberate murderous intent, do so.

The way homeopaths water things down would it matter if they did administer poison, prepared as per the homeopathic norm?

ippy

Owlswing

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2016, 10:13:47 AM »
It might be a good idea to write down all of the various homeopathic cures for various ailments on to a card system and then some kind of exotic bird with psychic powers, of course, was trained to pick cards from this system, with the prospective patient present, then use whatever cure on the card chosen is used to aid this victim, sorry patient, to recover from whatever may have been wrong with them.

I've seen this method used for reading horoscopes, now where did I see that practice being used and what country did the people involved come from?

Now if the above methods were used when administering homeopathy it would certainly boost the already enormous amount of confidence I have in homeopathy, way beyond the placebo, as it would no doubt boost JP's confidence too.

What is it Siriam? This brave new word frightens you, so you're trying to get back to your roots, a bit like going back to that worn out, leaky but comfortable pair of old shoes?

ippy

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ippy

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2016, 10:17:33 AM »
Sarcasm - the lowest form of wit.

How original, I'm impressed. 

ippy

Owlswing

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2016, 10:24:57 AM »
How original, I'm impressed. 

ippy

Doesn't take much to impress you then! That expression is vastly older than I am!
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Outrider

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2016, 12:56:40 PM »
Yes it does.  Psychosomatic illnesses are real illnesses, and very common, and can be cured by appropriate treatment.

Yes, but the appropriate treatment for a psychosomatic illness is psycho-therapy. Homeopathic remedies will not do anything, although the pretense of treatment might. Treatment works, but homeopathy doesn't.

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But the medical profession will just say "it's all in the mind" and leave you to die.

Not in my experience, they won't.

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Yes, it's all in the mind, but you still need help.  If that means being conned, well, the mind's like that.  If it's not kept conned, it loses the will to live.

Actually treating the condition rather than the symptom requires something more than merely a pretense of treatment - psychosomatic conditions are still caused by something, and that something may need to be addressed.

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Placebos are especially appropriate for children who are made ill by their mothers.  They get better when their mothers expect them to.

Again, the appropriate treatment for Munchausen's-by-proxy is therapy for the parent, not lying to both parent and child - and even if it were, not at the inflated prices charged by homeopaths for a methodology that is proven to be ineffective for anything.

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2016, 01:07:37 PM »
1. The idea of the OP was precisely to highlight the research done by some eminent scientists in proving that homeopathy works.

And, as was pointed out, the accumulated review of the available data shows that it doesn't work. Those trials which have produced positive results have typically been either too small to be reliable or too poorly conducted to be reliable. (http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/homeopathy)

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2. Merely asserting that homeopathy does not work is blind skepticism.

Firstly, skepticism is inherently 'blind' - it's for the claimant to illuminate the evidence supporting their position. For homeopathy, that has still not been done. Secondly, it's not an 'assertion' - the evidence has consistently gone against homeopathy, and the methodology defies all known scientific principles.

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3. Commenting against homeopathy is a matter of affiliation. Some people just want to be seen speaking against it regardless of whether they have actually had any experience with it at all.

Whereas some people support anything that's not the mainstream, for a variety of reasons. The motivations are irrelevant, it's the arguments that stand or fall on their own merits. The argument for homeopathy fails on the basis that, when tested, it fails to achieve anything more than a placebo.

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4. Dismissing it as placebo is meaningless because no one knows how placebo actually works.

It's not meaningless. You don't need to know how placebo works to know that it does work. Equally, you don't need to know how homeopathy might work if it behaves exactly the same as a placebo in order to classify it as a placebo. Treatments that work outperform placebo, that's the basis of medical trials.

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5. Infant and animal illnesses treated successfully prove that homeopathy cannot be just placebo.

No, they don't. There are any number of reasons why anecdotes of successful treatment (for any methodology) could be unrepresentative, that's why we conduct controlled trials. When we do, homeopathy doesn't work.

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Dismissing these cases as due to confirmation bias on the part of parents and animal owners is a case of confirmation bias itself.

That's not what's being done. The anecdotes are being rejected because they're anecdotes - the methodological trials show that homeopathy doesn't work.

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6. How homeopathy works is of secondary importance as long as it works.

Yes. It doesn't work. It's been repeatedly shown not to work.

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And that fact has ample evidence in the form of millions/billions of satisfied patients around the world.

No, millions/billions of people support all sorts of bullshit - the argumentum ad populum is still a logical fallacy.

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7. Some cases of research that try to establish that homeopathy does not work is clearly about confirmation bias.

Again, the motivation or the interpretation? Motivation doesn't matter, the data shows what it shows. The interpretation is open to scrutiny, and if anyone's seen confirmation bias in the published data they've not cited it - I'm sure you'll do so now, though, right?

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And we have seen in cases like the Cholesterol controversy that clinical trials and medical opinion can be pretty messed up.

The problems with the clinical trials on Cholesterol are many and varied, ranging from the influence of vested interests through to poorly designed trials and the systematic evidence hiding of large pharmaceutical firms. Underlying the problem, though, isnt' that the treatments don't have the claimed effect (lowering cholesterol) but rather whether cholesterol is actually a reliable indicator of negative health outcomes in the first place.

That's not going to be an issue for homeopathy, given that it isn't limited to claiming efficacy for a singular condition or symptom.

O.
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Udayana

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2016, 01:12:25 PM »
Hi everyone,

1. The idea of the OP was precisely to highlight the research done by some eminent scientists in proving that homeopathy works.

...

Well ... that's a problem as that research was not peer reviewed and does not hold up. Even the paper "Chikramane PS, Suresh AK, Bellare JR, and Govind S. Extreme homeopathic dilutions retain starting materials: A nanoparticulate perspective. Homeopathy. Volume 99, Issue 4, October 2010, 231-242."
supposedly adding to Montagnier, does not get anywhere. Even if these results could be reproduced it is still a far way from proving that homeopathic remedies work for any conditions.

Dana Ullman, the writer of the article you linked, is himself far from independent in these matters.

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

jeremyp

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #135 on: January 15, 2016, 01:42:18 PM »
The way they dilute whatever they think works, I suppose it would be safe to take cyanide prepared in the same way as homeopathic, so called, medicine is prepared.

ippy

That's exactly the kind of thing they do. Some idiot invented a principle called "like cures like" from which he concluded that you treat the symptoms with a very dilute version of the cause. Got arsenic poisoning? Take this homeopathic arsenic. Fortunately, it is diluted well beyond the possibility of having any arsenic in it.

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jeremyp

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #136 on: January 15, 2016, 01:46:18 PM »
You live up to your byline!

You really will not see that there can be any view but your own.

On the subject of homeopathy, my view is correct. Just because there is an alternative and wrong view that homeopathy works doesn't mean I have to apologise to you for being right.

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If YOU do not believe in it, it MUST be wrong. There can be no alternative to Jeremyp's way, oipinion, worldview. On anything.
This is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. Homeopathy MUST be wrong, because there is no possible mechanism by which it could work and when tested properly it is found that it does not work.

If you want to prove me wrong, you don't do it by sneering at the fact that I am right. Bring some evidence to the table.
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jeremyp

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #137 on: January 15, 2016, 01:47:50 PM »
Yes it does.  Psychosomatic illnesses are real illnesses, and very common, and can be cured by appropriate treatment.
Yes but the fake "cure" does not need to be a homeopathic remedy.
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Red Giant

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #138 on: January 16, 2016, 05:53:57 AM »
Yes, but the appropriate treatment for a psychosomatic illness is psycho-therapy. Homeopathic remedies will not do anything, although the pretense of treatment might. Treatment works, but homeopathy doesn't.
The pretence of treatment is the psycho-therapy.

Obviously it doesn't matter if they skipped the dilution lark and filled the bottle from the tap.  It'll work just as well.

The bottled water did wonders for a former colleague, who believed in all sorts of woo.  Did nothing for me.  But if they'd told me it was a new superdrug, who knows.

Outrider

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #139 on: January 16, 2016, 10:26:12 AM »
The pretence of treatment is the psycho-therapy.

So, again, homeopathy doesn't work. The trappings of pseudo-treatment work to treat the 'pseudo' illness, but that doesn't vindicate homeopathy in the slightest.

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The bottled water did wonders for a former colleague, who believed in all sorts of woo.  Did nothing for me.  But if they'd told me it was a new superdrug, who knows.

That, of course, validates the placebo effect.

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2016, 02:03:33 PM »
The pretence of treatment is the psycho-therapy.
And what happens when the patient realises they were lied to?

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Obviously it doesn't matter if they skipped the dilution lark and filled the bottle from the tap.  It'll work just as well.

So any placebo - which is what we have been saying all along.

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ippy

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Re: Homeopathy!
« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2016, 05:02:28 PM »
And what happens when the patient realises they were lied to?

So any placebo - which is what we have been saying all along.

Made me laugh, love it.

This post sums up homeopathy, in a nutshell.

ippy