Author Topic: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?  (Read 17649 times)

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2016, 10:58:45 AM »
Most of the people who are a part of the 'macho' sub culture you describe haven't thought about theism at all, or the lack of it. Trent's point is that atheism means no more to them than Christianity does. Although atheism is an absence of belief it is still a considered point of view.

Which a baby can't hold, so can't be an atheist?


Rhiannon

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2016, 11:41:13 AM »
Do we have an issue with homophobic babies?

Stranger

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2016, 11:57:55 AM »
Although atheism is an absence of belief it is still a considered point of view.

Not necessarily. If you don't believe in any gods, you are an atheist - whether or not you've considered it.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Rhiannon

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2016, 12:09:20 PM »
I would have thought that a form of agnosticism.

You have to consider something to decide if you believe in it or not.

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2016, 12:18:09 PM »
Do we have an issue with homophobic babies?

No just the definition of an atheist.   :-\

I keep being told babies are born atheist, but like you I tend to think of them like agnostics.

For a moment there I thought you held to the babies are born atheist theory.  :)

 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 12:20:11 PM by Rose »

Leonard James

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2016, 12:19:57 PM »
No just the definition of an atheist.

I keep being told babies are born atheist, but like you I tend to think of them like agnostics.

 :-\

I'm sure they don't mind in the slightest what you call them!  :)

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2016, 12:21:20 PM »
I'm sure they don't mind in the slightest what you call them!  :)

I'm sure they don't Len, as long as they get love and cuddles and treated well  :)

Stranger

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2016, 12:29:32 PM »
I would have thought that a form of agnosticism.

You have to consider something to decide if you believe in it or not.

No, agnosticism is the belief that we can't know anything about the existence or nature of god (which has to be a considered view).

You don't have to decide not to believe in something. If you've never encountered a proposition, you can't believe it. Remember, atheism isn't the belief that there are no gods (you'd have to think about that) it's just a lack of belief that there are any.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Rhiannon

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2016, 12:32:22 PM »
No just the definition of an atheist.   :-\

I keep being told babies are born atheist, but like you I tend to think of them like agnostics.

For a moment there I thought you held to the babies are born atheist theory.  :)

It's a difficult one. Boiled down to it atheism is an absence of belief in God. Agnosticism takes the view that God is unknowable. In that sense babies are atheist.

However, I'm not comfortable with the idea that an adult who has never considered the existence of God can be declared to have an absence of belief in God. Perhaps non-theist is a better way of putting it; even agnosticism is still a considered point of view i.e God is unknowable.

Rhiannon

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2016, 12:38:41 PM »
No, agnosticism is the belief that we can't know anything about the existence or nature of god (which has to be a considered view).

You don't have to decide not to believe in something. If you've never encountered a proposition, you can't believe it. Remember, atheism isn't the belief that there are no gods (you'd have to think about that) it's just a lack of belief that there are any.

Just covered some of this in my reply to Rose.

Many people identify as agnostic because they don't know if God exists or not; I know quite a few personally. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as believing his to be unknowable, but it's a personal position of a lack of knowledge when used in that way rather than as a universal one. It may be that the original meaning has been corrupted but it's a common modern usage.

As I said in my reply to Rose, I'm uncomfortable putting labels on adults , even thick ones. The seems odd to label someone an atheist when we don't know what their belief would be should we ask them to consider their point of view. Maybe non-theist is better.

Or maybe I'm hair splitting.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2016, 01:14:40 PM »
Hi rose you didnt upset me.

My point is this most homophobes as far as i can see dont identify themselves as anything(there are exceptions of course as we see on here in 1 or 2 cases).

They are a huge number of people who dont concern themselves with thoughts of faith or ethics. They simply interested in their next fix whether it be food or alcohol or drugs or a shag. But what they do draw on if they are homophobic is the residual anti gay prejudice created by the various religions. I dont classify them as rieligious nor as atheist. They are the unthinking vicious result of failed political social and economic policies in this country.
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BeRational

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2016, 01:42:54 PM »
Which a baby can't hold, so can't be an atheist?

If you dont believe in God or have no beliefs at all then you are an atheist
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Bubbles

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2016, 02:35:50 PM »
Hi rose you didnt upset me.

My point is this most homophobes as far as i can see dont identify themselves as anything(there are exceptions of course as we see on here in 1 or 2 cases).

They are a huge number of people who dont concern themselves with thoughts of faith or ethics. They simply interested in their next fix whether it be food or alcohol or drugs or a shag. But what they do draw on if they are homophobic is the residual anti gay prejudice created by the various religions. I dont classify them as rieligious nor as atheist. They are the unthinking vicious result of failed political social and economic policies in this country.

I can see where you are coming from on that one  :)



Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2016, 02:55:13 PM »

They are the unthinking vicious result of failed political social and economic policies in this country.


That's the style!

If all else fails blame it on the Government and it policies! And the current Government will lay the blame on the previous Government etc ad infinitum as nauseam!

Why not put the blame upon those who espouse the demonisation of LGBT people. You can say that it is becaise of the macho culture, but where, ultimatelky does the culture of male sureriorit come from?

Adam and the subordination of Eve - Lilith having been refused the option of being on top sometimes having been banished and demonised as a witch!

Where is Adam foiund?

In the bible!

A friend of mine who is so macho he can crack Brazil nuts with his eyelashes happily recounts an incident when he and a few friends went to a pub the had not visited before, way back in the late 70's. One of the group was gay, an effeminate homosexual was the accepted term at the time, and some other visitors to the pub took exception to the gay young man's presence. The landlord objected and told the blokes to either shut up or get out.

The landord was told to mind his own business and the leader of the objectors told the gay guy that he and his mates were going to take him outside and round the back of the pub, bend him over and show him what it was like to have a "real man" screw him in the arse!

The gay guy's response was what makes my friend remember this so well.

A "real man"? Screw my arse? Darling, any man who screws another man up the arse is a homosexual, a closet one  in your case, but a homosexual nevertheless. I see you wear a wedding ring, do you ever screw your wife up the arse? Of course you do, she has the "proper" place for you to screw her but you choose her arse! You're as gay as I am, you just don't have the balls to admit it!

The "real man's" mates were laughing and one said that the gay had it right, as the "real man's" wife had complained that he preferred her arse.

How many other homphobes do you think are actuallly covering up a fear that they are actually gay?


« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 02:58:04 PM by Owlswing »
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2016, 07:04:32 PM »
Quote
Why not put the blame upon those who espouse the demonisation of LGBT people.

Well in my original post I did highlight the part religions had played in the upholding of anti gay views within society.

I thought I was clear on that.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Brownie

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #91 on: March 30, 2016, 04:46:49 PM »
...are you sure?

Now, the Infinity club in Manchester has installed double cubicles or "twobicles" for female customers. So popular are they that the queues are enormous, even when other, single cubicles are free.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/aug/31/gender.uk1

Sounds gross to me! 

I wouldn't care about transsexuals or transgender people using the same facilities as me but do believe there should be closed dubicles.  If you are out somewhere and have to 'go', you just go the nearest convenience!  Thankfully no public urinals or sitting areas in the UK.

Someone mentioned locker rooms, showers etc, being communal.  I really wouldn't have liked that when I was young (wouldn't like it now but situation doesn't arise).  Maybe I am 'old school', but we didn't have communal showers.  Locker rooms for changing after sport, yes, but you didn't get naked in there.
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floo

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #92 on: March 30, 2016, 05:28:31 PM »
We had communal showers at the Ladies college I attended, but we weren't forced to use them. In fact there were only two girls who were prepared to do so in my form.

Hope

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #93 on: March 30, 2016, 05:32:12 PM »
Why not put the blame upon those who espouse the demonisation of LGBT people. You can say that it is becaise of the macho culture, but where, ultimatelky does the culture of male sureriorit come from?
I've heard and seen more demonisation of said people from within that organisation than from any other!!

Quote
Adam and the subordination of Eve - Lilith having been refused the option of being on top sometimes having been banished and demonised as a witch!

Where is Adam foiund?

In the bible!
And the passage you refer to is a theological treatise, rather than a historical record.
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Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #94 on: March 30, 2016, 06:21:33 PM »

I've heard and seen more demonisation of said people from within that organisation than from any other!!
And the passage you refer to is a theological treatise, rather than a historical record.


Which organisation?
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Hope

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2016, 08:13:15 PM »
Which organisation?
Sorry, I should have said 'those organisations' such as Stonewall, the Lesbian and Gay Foundation,OutRage!' LGBT Network, etc.

I think the thing I find most interesting is the way in which Trans- and Bi-sexual people often feel that they and their causes have been hijacked by the gay community and their organisations.
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Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #96 on: March 30, 2016, 08:16:35 PM »
Sorry, I should have said 'those organisations' such as Stonewall, the Lesbian and Gay Foundation,OutRage!' LGBT Network, etc.

I think the thing I find most interesting is the way in which Trans- and Bi-sexual people often feel that they and their causes have been hijacked by the gay community and their organisations.

I don't know how many trans- and/or bi- people you know but those I know that I copied this to (eleven all told) generally agree that you are talking out of your arse.
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An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Aruntraveller

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #97 on: March 30, 2016, 10:22:00 PM »
There he is again with his extensive knowledge of gay networks and gay, bi & transgendered people.

What it is to have such an expert in our midst.

He, from his postings knows more gay people than I do - and I've only been around the gay community for about 40 years now. Astonishing.

Mind you he never discusses these issues anywhere but here. He rarely thinks about them except on here. Where then does he get his expertise in this area from?

Makes one think how easy it is to be an expert.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #98 on: March 30, 2016, 10:57:54 PM »
There he is again with his extensive knowledge of gay networks and gay, bi & transgendered people.

What it is to have such an expert in our midst.

He, from his postings knows more gay people than I do - and I've only been around the gay community for about 40 years now. Astonishing.

Mind you he never discusses these issues anywhere but here. He rarely thinks about them except on here. Where then does he get his expertise in this area from?

Makes one think how easy it is to be an expert.

As stated elsewhere on this forum - ex = something that has been - xpert (pronounced spurt) = a drip under pressure.

From 1972 to 1975 I worked with transvestites and transgenders in the strip joints of Syndey, Australia's Kings Cross area. I was co-opted onto a group that helped to counsel teenage trans, usually MTF, runaways who headed for the Cross when life as trans at home and/or school became too much for them to handle.

When I returned to the UK a friend, female, who overheard my brothers discussing my helping trans people, asked to meet me, and again co-opted me to work with trans people here in the UK. I only gave this sideline up six years ago.

Strangely enough about 70% of those who suffered worst at the hands of the homophobic were those from strongly religious homes or areas.

The amount of rubbish posted on this thread has lead me to a moment where I feel that I should make clear my reasons for my attitudes in the matter of both gays and trans people and, in particular, the attitudes of people like Sassy, Hope, and Vlad, to trans and gay people, so here goes and I am damn glad that JC is no longer here as I know just how much shit what I am about to say would head my way from his direction, I have no doubt that Vlad will pass it on to JC, but I have, to be honest, got past the point where I give a tuppenny fuck what others on this forum think of me or my history or my views on various subjects.

Had I been born in 1996 instead of 1946 I would have been MTF transgender. From the age of about seven I wanted nothing more in my life but to be a girl. I hated being a boy.

As has been stated before, my father was a staunch High Anglican, and I made the mistake of talking of my desire to be a girl in his hearing. I got the worst beating of my life and was warned that, should I ever mention the subject in front of him again, my next beating would be my last. Neither my mother nor I were in any doubt as to the truth of his words.

So all of you who decide to read this confession. offered freely and without duress, may now understand my aversion to, one, the Christian Church and its adherents and, two, to those who express such unpleasant attitudes to trans and gay people as those mentioned above, among others.

Yes I was married and have three children, part of the price I had to pay for my father not making my sexuality public. My children are well aware of the above facts and have shown themselves, being of a more modern generation, far more understanding than either my father or the Church in which I was brought up ever were. And NO, I did not declare my sexuality when I joined the Army and it did not have anything to do with my leaving the Army, that was brought about by a recurrence of my asthma.

HOPE SASSY VLAD

Now challenge my knowledge of gay and transgender issues and my knowledge of just what right bastards Christians can be when they go into pulpit mode.

Do your worst, you cannot hope to match my father!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Anti-trans - what is its basis in Christian doctrine?
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2016, 06:22:53 AM »
Hope, Sassy, Vlad

THIS is the kind of religious discrimination that LGBT people face

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/mississippi_senate_passes_horrific_anti_lgbt_religious_freedom_bill

All others of more reasonable attitudes - read it and weep!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!