Here's The Plan We Should Be Following.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed, we don't say to people supporting parties that voted in general elections that they are behaving dishonourably if they continue to campaign against govt policies.

[wigginhall]

Indeed, we don't say to people supporting parties tgatvlisecin general elections that they are behaving dishonourably if they continue to campaign against govt policies.

In fact, it sounds totalitarian.   The country has decided, therefore no dissent will be permitted. 

[Bubbles]

While I am of the opinion that we need to follow the vote, I fail to see how anyone who doesn't is behaving dishourabky given a govt they didn't vote for decreed a referendum they didn't support with an electoral register they thought was wrong on a campaign they thought was based on lies.

If you all voted for independance by the same margin in Scotland, and the losers kept trying to find a way so it didn't happen and kept justifying why Scotland couldn't have independance, how would you see that?

Given that you had been told and promised by Westminster the result would determine your future.

If people then said it shouldn't happen because it was a small majority which could be overturned.

Would you find that dishonourable?

Because I would.

Even if I didn't like the result, the honourable thing to do is to do what was promised IMO.

Not make up reasons, for it not happening.

I'm opposed to Scotland being independant, but if you won a vote, I would expect it to be honoured. Never mind my own personal veiw.

It's the same, in as much as its Westminster promising something,  and then everyone keep going on about changing the meaning of the vote,  to suit themselves.

Does that make sense?

The Government allowed both referendums and led people to believe the outcome would dictate what actually happen.

It's dishonourable to backtrack on that.

Be it Scotland or Brexit.

[Bubbles]

In fact, it sounds totalitarian.   The country has decided, therefore no dissent will be permitted.

That's right, it's called democracy.

People were led to believe their collective vote would determine the outcome. That the majority of votes would determine the outcome.

It wasn't an opinion poll, was it?

Would we have back tracked on Scottish Independance as well?

Found sneaky little ways not to give it to them?

[Nearly Sane]

Dissent isn't allowed  in a democracy? Do you want to try that one again, Rose?

[Bubbles]

Dissent isn't  in a democracy? Do you want to try that one again, Rose?

You didn't answer my point about Scotland.

Would you find it dishonourable if we were talking about the Scottish Independance referendum instead?

And it had won, and people thought it was ok to fudge and flannel their way out of it?

 

[wigginhall]

Dissent has been crucial in politics.   For example, women used to not have the vote, but some brave women dissented, and eventually this was changed.  There are many other examples. 

[Nearly Sane]

You didn't answer my point about Scotland.

Would you find it dishonourable if we were talking about the Scottish Independance referendum instead?

And it had won, and people thought it was ok to fudge and flannel their way out of it?

I didn't answer because it's irrelevant as you are ignoring the points made. People who opposed things are not being dishonourable in continuing to do so. They are not bound to follow the statements of people they voted against.

[Bubbles]

Dissent isn't allowed  in a democracy? Do you want to try that one again, Rose?

I don't think a minority should be trying to sabotage a majority vote in a referendum.

Even a large minority.

When you get a small majority vote in Scotland for independance and the politicians in Westminster  try to back out because it's unpopular with the Rest of the U.K. and think it's ok to allow dissenters to block you, I think you will get why I think it's dishonourable.

 

I can see you ain't worked it out yet!

I've got a feeling one day you might though.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think a minority should be trying to sabotage a majority vote in a referendum.

Even a large minority.

When you get a small majority vote in Scotland for independance and the politicians in Westminster  try to back out because it's unpopular with the Rest of the U.K. and think it's ok to allow dissenters to block you, I think you will get why I think it's dishonourable.

 

No, I really won't since I expect dissent in a democracy. I don't understand how a democracy works without dissent.  That you want to stop dissent seems anti democratic.

[Bubbles]

I didn't answer because it's irrelevant as you are ignoring the points made. People who opposed things are not being dishonourable in continuing to do so. They are not bound to follow the statements of people they voted against.

It's not as irrelevant as you like to think.

It's all the reasons people try and give for not following through or trying to ensure it doesn't happen.

[Nearly Sane]

It's not as irrelevant as you like to think.

It's all the reasons people try and give for not following through or trying to ensure it doesn't happen.

. It's irrelevant for the reason I have pointed out. And in addition, I've already stated my position is the same. Dissent is not anti democratic.

[Bubbles]

No, I really won't since I expect dissent in a democracy. I don't understand how a democracy works without dissent.  That you want to stop dissent seems anti democratic.

It's not dissent, it's people trying to manoeuvre a different outcome to the one promised.

David Cameron and some of the prominent MP s are trying not to do that, there are many other MP s who are trying to overturn the vote in a variety of ways.

As gets discussed on here.

[wigginhall]

Parliament itself is structured around dissent.   A party wins a general election, but other parties are then entitled to oppose this government, and if they can, bring it down.   Without dissent, there is simply tyranny. 

[Jack Knave]

the two points are connected here. You couldn't do much about the first, although perhaps not just talking about it on internal websites might help. And you don't have much ability to get Article 50 invoked before an election. Are you scared that an election would remove the mandate?

I've said I've been aware of this for many months. There's little we can do about it.

The up side is that the EU is falling apart. The way the Leave lot see things many across the EU do as well. Hungary, I believe are having a referendum on immigrants soon. And god knows how the up coming elections in Germany and France late next year are going to affect things. Neither Merkel or Hollande are going to want to rock the boat by saying that they will be harsh on us and inflict tariffs on their goods.

[Bubbles]

. It's irrelevant for the reason I have pointed out. And in addition, I've already stated my position is the same. Dissent is not anti democratic.

Ok so when Scotland does get a independant vote it's ok for all of us to show dissent and the politicians in Westminster to overturn the referendum.

Now I know.

It's ok with you, you see it as part of the democratic process.

I'll remember that.

It's ok for politicians to back track on their promises and block things.

[Nearly Sane]

It's not dissent, it's people trying to manoeuvre a different outcome to the one promised.

David Cameron and some of the prominent MP s are trying not to do that, there are many other MP s who are trying to overturn the vote in a variety of ways.

As gets discussed on here.

Except as already pointed out many times,  and ignored repeatedly by you, you are calling all dissenters dishonourable including all those who voted against the govt, the referendum, the way it was held. You also are ignoring the points about not expecting people to give up opposition after a GE.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't think there should be a second referendum.

The march through London only had the support of a few thousand.

Stop trying to change the result of the vote.

It is, what it is.

If I am forced to vote again by the losers, I shall be changing my vote in protest.

Only a lobotomy might entice me to do that.

[Nearly Sane]

Ok so when Scotland does get a independant vote it's ok for all of us to show dissent and the politicians in Westminster to overturn the referendum.

Now I know.

It's ok with you, you see it as part of the democratic process.

I'll remember that.

It's ok for politicians to back track on their promises and block things.

Can I suggest you read what is written? If someone has said that a referendum should be held and followed, then I think it would be dishonourable for them not to do that. But if someone has voted against the govt, voted against any referendum, voted against the way tg referendum is held, then their continued opposition is not dishonourable.

[Jack Knave]

This is just shallow tabloid speak that pays no heed to the deeper issues.  It is a regressive head in the sand attitude to think we can go back to some sort of twentieth century model for Europe with nations disparately putting their national self interest above the greater good. The problems of the modern world are increasingly international, cross-border and global in nature and we need to be able to form coherent policies at all those levels.  Nature is no respecter of political boundaries and so we need coherent policy making for things like agriculture, fisheries, environment, energy and climate policy at the very least.  Europe also needs to pay attention to its particular problems, which historically have been those of extreme nationalism and extreme political ideologies.  Economic union of the countries of Europe mitigates those risks via the prospect of greater prosperity that flows from elimination of artificial barriers to trade and movements of its people. We seem to have voted in favour of step backwards, possibly setting a trend that gives succour to the inward looking, the myopic, which might please the brain-dead fascist elements who are still there, in numbers, in many European countries.

This is just shallow tabloid speak that pays no heed to the deeper issues. You think a load of idealistic verbiage is the answer? You really think the EU has the answer and is on course for greater things? How laughable. You really think that what the EU has done to Greece is this wonderful vision of a better world; where the suicide rate has shot up due to despair and a sense of hopelessness.

You are as stupid as Corbyn singing, "Keep The Red Flag Flying".

[wigginhall]

A famous example concerns Gaitskell, who opposed the Labour party vote for nuclear disarmament.  Gaitskell made a famous speech, saying he would fight this tooth and nail, and of course, was labelled extremely honourable and one of the great moments in British politics!  I think eventually it was reversed.  Politics is full of dissent and fighting against a majority decision.

[Bubbles]

Parliament itself is structured around dissent.   A party wins a general election, but other parties are then entitled to oppose this government, and if they can, bring it down.   Without dissent, there is simply tyranny.

That's not quite what I'm talking about here. I am aware of the idea of the opposition.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/uk-voted-for-brexit-but-is-there-a-way-back

It's more about some people plotting to disregard the referendum altogether, when the government promised that what the people voted for, they would get.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-loophole-eu-referendum-mps-law-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html

That's not dissent, that's dishonesty.

The reason David Cameron is saying no to some MP s and others suggestions, is because he knows it's dishonesty.

So much so, he can't bring himself to do what the honest approach entails, and has stepped down.

[Nearly Sane]

I've said I've been aware of this for many months. There's little we can do about it.

The up side is that the EU is falling apart. The way the Leave lot see things many across the EU do as well. Hungary, I believe are having a referendum on immigrants soon. And god knows how the up coming elections in Germany and France late next year are going to affect things. Neither Merkel or Hollande are going to want to rock the boat by saying that they will be harsh on us and inflict tariffs on their goods.

sorry, this seems like a non sequitur. Surely whether we should argue for a GE after the new PM emerges and parties can give the clear position on what Brexit should be is not affected by any of the above?

[Bubbles]

How on earth can you have a general election to resolve the Brexit issue?

Remain and leave supporters are spread across the parties.

Is one political party going to agree to represent staying in, and the other coming out?

[Jack Knave]

Sorry but we voted in a referendum that was just about leaving the EU.
At the moment we are committed to leaving but have no mandate for how we leave.

Your side was not prepared to share how Brexit would work preferring bullshit and sales talk

Now the referendum is over The necessary goal now is economic competence.

The is only one way to leave and that is to leave. To take back control and leave the EU's political project, which includes the Single Market.

The leave campaign and those in the leave arena were never a homogeneous unit.