Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 176878 times)

Piers, nothing between the ears

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2325 on: July 03, 2025, 11:55:33 AM »
Russia has further ambitions; defending Ukraine isn't just about reclaiming Ukrainian territory that's been illegally occupied, it's also about preventing further incursions into other territories
No, Russia has been warning NATO to stop expanding for decades, so you can't say NATO expansion is an excuse for pursuing territorial ambitions.
Russian expansion Westward is aimed at protecting itself, having been invaded by Napoleon and Germany in recent centuries. The Soviet Union, which NATO was designed to defend against, no longer exists. So why create a power imbalance that turns NATO  into a threat? Like it or not, balance of power is a thing. The OSCE says so, stating that a state should not increase its security at the expense of another's security. An imbalance of power creates a 'security dilemma'. This is where if one state increases its military strength, even if only for defensive purposes, a neighbouring state may see that as a threat, and take countermeasures, and so a cycle of escalation begins that can lead to war.

NATO expansion has driven Russia and China closer together - exactly what the US was trying to avoid, according to an article by Wess Mitchell in 2018, where he discusses non-military ways to lower the risk of the US having to fight a war on both Western and Eastern borders of Asia at the same time. He also says that it may be necessary to "firmly slam the door to Russian Westward expansion" by inflicting a military defeat upon it in Ukraine, to teach it a lesson. Well, that military defeat is looking less and less likely.

So it would be better if the US leaves NATO, or limits its role within the bloc to responding to nuclear attack on a member state.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2326 on: July 03, 2025, 12:18:56 PM »
No, Russia has been warning NATO to stop expanding for decades, so you can't say NATO expansion is an excuse for pursuing territorial ambitions.
Russian expansion Westward is aimed at protecting itself, having been invaded by Napoleon and Germany in recent centuries. The Soviet Union, which NATO was designed to defend against, no longer exists. So why create a power imbalance that turns NATO  into a threat? Like it or not, balance of power is a thing. The OSCE says so, stating that a state should not increase its security at the expense of another's security. An imbalance of power creates a 'security dilemma'. This is where if one state increases its military strength, even if only for defensive purposes, a neighbouring state may see that as a threat, and take countermeasures, and so a cycle of escalation begins that can lead to war.

NATO expansion has driven Russia and China closer together - exactly what the US was trying to avoid, according to an article by Wess Mitchell in 2018, where he discusses non-military ways to lower the risk of the US having to fight a war on both Western and Eastern borders of Asia at the same time. He also says that it may be necessary to "firmly slam the door to Russian Westward expansion" by inflicting a military defeat upon it in Ukraine, to teach it a lesson. Well, that military defeat is looking less and less likely.

So it would be better if the US leaves NATO, or limits its role within the bloc to responding to nuclear attack on a member state.

I'm calling bullshit on that. NATO eastward expansion is the direct result of russian aggression. Russia's neighbours watched what happened in Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya (and now Ukraine) and came to the conclusion that despite the fall of the Soviet Union, russia hadn't changed at all: same beast, different incarnation. The only way to ensure it not happening to them was to join NATO. The proof of the pudding is Ukraine. You're just making excuses for russian imperialism.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2025, 12:34:42 PM by ad_orientem »
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Piers, nothing between the ears

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2327 on: July 03, 2025, 12:34:31 PM »
You're just making excuses for russian imperialism.
Larry Johnson says this is not true - Putin has been warning NATO for two decades.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2328 on: July 03, 2025, 12:37:02 PM »
Larry Johnson says this is false, the evidence being that Putin has been warning NATO  for two decades.

Yeah? Well, Larry Johnson is a moron then! If Putin feels threatened by its neighbours wanting to protect themselves against russian aggression, Putin can eat a bag of dicks!
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Piers, nothing between the ears

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2329 on: July 03, 2025, 12:49:33 PM »
Yeah? Well, Larry Johnson is a moron then! If Putin feels threatened by its neighbours wanting to protect themselves against russian aggression, Putin can eat a bag of dicks!
Let's hope both sides de-escalate soon.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2330 on: July 03, 2025, 12:56:47 PM »
Let's hope both sides de-escalate soon.

The only one escalating is russia. It can de-escalate by getting the fuck out of Ukraine.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.