Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: ippy on April 11, 2016, 03:22:03 PM
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I had the £9,000,000 brochure through my letterbox this morning it hardly hit the ground it's on its way back to number ten all ready.
These politicians the cheek?
ippy
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I had the £9,000,000 brochure through my letterbox this morning it hardly hit the ground it's on its way back to number ten all ready.
These politicians the cheek?
ippy
Not yet.
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Tell me more Ippy.
Did you put a stamp on it?
Did you make any comments on it?
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I had the £9,000,000 brochure through my letterbox this morning it hardly hit the ground it's on its way back to number ten all ready.
These politicians the cheek?
ippy
Haven't even got it yet. However, on this occasion I find myself in the unprecedented position of agreeing with a Tory government about something. Most of the press is rabidly anti EU, so people should be given the other point of view.
If you are worried about the cost to the taxpayer, sending it back without postage will cost us even more.
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I can't believe it couldn't have been done cheaper, but the leaflet itself seems a legitimate thing to send out.
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I just saw that an SNP MP has suggested a 16 page booklet, sent to everyone, advising how to utilize off-shore tax havens. Tolerably amusing. Stuart Blair Donaldson is the name.
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I can't believe it couldn't have been done cheaper, but the leaflet itself seems a legitimate thing to send out.
Very much agree. I shall get my reader to go through it with me next time she comes. I am very firmly for remaining IN the EU I think that all over 80should be banned from voting. We shall all be dead soonish and it is the young and middl-aged who will have to live with the consequences of the result. I heard that the daughter of the man who hosts Woodstock (is that the right name?) has made a point of making it clear to the young on the associated web site that they should make sure they vote and has explained how to do this by post.
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Very much agree. I shall get my reader to go through it with me next time she comes. I am very firmly for remaining IN the EU I think that all over 80should be banned from voting. We shall all be dead soonish and it is the young and middl-aged who will have to live with the consequences of the result. I heard that the daughter of the man who hosts Woodstock (is that the right name?) has made a point of making it clear to the young on the associated web site that they should make sure they vote and has explained how to do this by post.
I agree we should stay in the EU.
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Haven't even got it yet. However, on this occasion I find myself in the unprecedented position of agreeing with a Tory government about something. Most of the press is rabidly anti EU, so people should be given the other point of view.
If you are worried about the cost to the taxpayer, sending it back without postage will cost us even more.
Postage paid, first class I wanted it to get there, I didn't ask for proof of delivery though.
My only regret is I couldn't do a personal delivery of his stinking brochure right up his jacksie.
ippy
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Tell me more Ippy.
Did you put a stamp on it?
Did you make any comments on it?
No comments John, its presence at number 10 should be enough.
ippy
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I can't believe it couldn't have been done cheaper, but the leaflet itself seems a legitimate thing to send out.
I haven't got a polite answer for you Rhi, I think you would know my view of what you have written in your post.
ippy
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I can't believe it couldn't have been done cheaper, but the leaflet itself seems a legitimate thing to send out.
Haven't had it yet - I assume its not just for England - but I'd have thought that £9m for 60+ million multi-page booklets, printed and delivered, isn't too bad - its about 7p each.
As for itsd value - we are getting so many scare-stories from the Out campaign, and so many responses from the Remain campaign that it's hard to know the truth. Perhaps the Out campaign ought to be allowed the same sum to send out a leaflet explaining their position.
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I just saw that an SNP MP has suggested a 16 page booklet, sent to everyone, advising how to utilize off-shore tax havens. Tolerably amusing. Stuart Blair Donaldson is the name.
I hear the trade unions are going to write it!
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VI heard that the daughter of the man who hosts Woodstock (is that the right name?) has made a point of making it clear to the young on the associated web site that they should make sure they vote and has explained how to do this by post.
Glastonbury? Michael and Emily Eavis?
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Very much agree. I shall get my reader to go through it with me next time she comes. I am very firmly for remaining IN the EU I think that all over 80should be banned from voting. We shall all be dead soonish and it is the young and middl-aged who will have to live with the consequences of the result. I heard that the daughter of the man who hosts Woodstock (is that the right name?) has made a point of making it clear to the young on the associated web site that they should make sure they vote and has explained how to do this by post.
Susan, I'm going to find where you live, somehow get in, find your stick and then hide it.
You may have noticed we don't agree on this one, we owe it to the younger generation to vote against staying as a part of a "democratic"? Europe.
ippy
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Haven't had it yet - I assume its not just for England - but I'd have thought that £9m for 60+ million multi-page booklets, printed and delivered, isn't too bad - its about 7p each.
As for itsd value - we are getting so many scare-stories from the Out campaign, and so many responses from the Remain campaign that it's hard to know the truth. Perhaps the Out campaign ought to be allowed the same sum to send out a leaflet explaining their position.
Absolutly.
ippy
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I didn't know we were getting a brochure (someone sitting near me says it's a 'leaflet'), never mind one that encloses a form to be completed and returned. Hey ho. Anyway I haven't received it yet. Had some about London mayoral elections though.
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Perhaps the Out campaign ought to be allowed the same sum to send out a leaflet explaining their position.
Most of the press seems to be serving as leaflets for the out campaign.
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Haven't had it yet - I assume its not just for England - but I'd have thought that £9m for 60+ million multi-page booklets, printed and delivered, isn't too bad - its about 7p each.
As for itsd value - we are getting so many scare-stories from the Out campaign, and so many responses from the Remain campaign that it's hard to know the truth. Perhaps the Out campaign ought to be allowed the same sum to send out a leaflet explaining their position.
Both the official out and stay-in campaigns will have tax-payers money, about £28m each (?) to put the full case. This brochure is just the government position. We won't know the "truth" of the various issues - it's too complicated to work out whether the UK would be better or worse off economically and politically with two parties each pushing their own views. Most people will vote on gut instinct.
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I didn't know we were getting a brochure (someone sitting near me says it's a 'leaflet'), never mind one that encloses a form to be completed and returned. Hey ho. Anyway I haven't received it yet. Had some about London mayoral elections though.
It's a brochure, Brownie with glossy pages. I should think it was fairly expensive to produce. I don't see any forms to complete.
I think that's just Ippy being Ippy. ( presumably he's just sent it back ::) with no comment anonymously to clutter up number 10 's doormat.)
I find it bizarre that the government is sending out these brochures, I would have thought they should have been more impartial.
Somehow I thought we would just get stuff from the two sides putting their case.
But no, these are official government ones with HM government on the front.
It gives the impression they are wetting themselves in case we vote to come out.
A bit like when they offered Scotland the opportunity to become independant.
:o
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Given that the chances are there'll be a financial implosion if we to vote to leave I should think they are shitting themselves. Wtf they were thinking I have no idea; if Scotland is anything to go by we'll vote to stay in and UKIP will still increase their share of the vote at the next election.
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No comments John, its presence at number 10 should be enough.
ippy
No comments needed, ippy. 'Dodgy Dave' - to quote 'Dodgy Dennis' will simply say - 'we already knew that there are some who want out'.
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I haven't got a polite answer for you Rhi, I think you would know my view of what you have written in your post.
ippy
I think what miffs ippy is that he can't spend the 7p it cost of his money to produce and deliver this booklet as he wants to.
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I hear the trade unions are going to write it!
They seem to have plenty of experience ;)
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Susan, I'm going to find where you live, somehow get in, find your stick and then hide it.
You may have noticed we don't agree on this one, we owe it to the younger generation to vote against staying as a part of a "democratic"? Europe.
ippy
But what if the young want to stay in? Of those under 25s I've spoken to on the issue, the figure is about 50/50. Not sure what the national figue is (after all, my non-scientific 'poll' is South Eastern Welsh, as opposed to UK wide)
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I find it bizarre that the government is sending out these brochures, I would have thought they should have been more impartial.
What's impartial about a Government, whose stated aim is to remain in the Union, creating a leaflet/booklet in support of their position?
But no, these are official government ones with HM government on the front.
It gives the impression they are wetting themselves in case we vote to come out.
The Government are the ones with the figures on overall costings, etc. No-one else. In view of their stated view, I'd have thought that it would be irresponsible for them NOT to express and explain their position.
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No comments needed, ippy. 'Dodgy Dave' - to quote 'Dodgy Dennis' will simply say - 'we already knew that there are some who want out'.
Yes you're probably right, I just hope it's a substantial pile of returns, mind you if he did see my name on one of the returns, I'm sure that on its own would have made him tremble, and spoil his nights sleep.
ippy
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I can't believe it couldn't have been done cheaper, but the leaflet itself seems a legitimate thing to send out.
£9,000,000. Say 20,000,000 households = less than 50p each.
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Perhaps the Out campaign ought to be allowed the same sum to send out a leaflet explaining their position.
They've got the Daily Fail.
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£9,000,000. Say 20,000,000 households = less than 50p each.
less than 50p each?
IMO taxpayers money could have been better spent.
There are a lot of people in this country that could have benefitted if the money had been used differently, OAPs the disabled or even the NHS.
We didn't need relatively expensive brochures, a leaflet would have sufficed.
I suppose we are now going to get the government doing the scare tactic thingy they did with Scotland over the independance vote.
Plus the view already expressed by Hope that the government is the only group of people with enough info and brains to work out what's best for us.
As for the government being the only ones with the facts.............. I'm not convinced about that.
Especially after having read the brochure. There are no "facts" in it, just opinions and propaganda.
All they do is make a few statements based on what they imagine people's fears are and playing on them..
For instance listing how many people's jobs,they think relies on being part of the EU or how it's going to be harder and more expensive to go on holiday.
I shall wait to read the out campaign with interest.
Not sure how I'm going to vote yet, I'll probably vote to stay in, not for the reasons in the brochure.
But I do resent the feeling that the government are trying to use scare tactics to influence people.
Jobs, cost of living, holidays etc.
Spreading fear that it could all go horribly wrong.
I suppose it makes us all feel we've had our say, but I question the wisdom of allowing public opinion to sway the choices of what is good for this country as a whole if the vast majority of them don't know or care about the facts.
If we are all that ignorant of the facts, what's the point of it? This brochure isn't about facts, it's a few statistics with an opinion added on.
It will be the same with the out campaign.
::)
At the end of the day, people will agree with the opinions based on the figures, which match their own world view, and vote with their gut reaction.
I wonder sometimes if this government likes gambling with the opinions of the masses and sets odds on each scenario.
Or maybe they like the thrill.
I've not forgiven them yet for nearly losing us Scotland, as part of the U.K. >:(
Allowing a vote on something that can be damaging to the UK, where a good percentage don't really understand the ramifications of the choice ?
What are they doing? Getting us to vote to destroy our country, out of ignorance? Haven't they got a duty of care, if most of us don't know enough about it to vote other than by gut reaction?
The government looks a bit scatty to me. They don't half do some scatty things.
Perhaps that's a good reason for staying in the EU?
:-\
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Susan, I'm going to find where you live, somehow get in, find your stick and then hide it.
You may have noticed we don't agree on this one, we owe it to the younger generation to vote against staying as a part of a "democratic"? Europe.
ippy
Huh! >:((:)) I obtained tickets yesterday for the 13/5/16 head-to-head with Desmond Swayne and Vince Cable, intent on hekling as much as possible wherever necessary!
ETA Well said, JeremyP.
Rose: Could you explain why approx 50p per house could have been 'better spent' , compared with the cost of the huge uncertainty which will result from the out vote.
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We didn't need relatively expensive brochures, a leaflet would have sufficed.
A single sheet, 3-fold, leaflet in glorious technicolour costs about a little under a penny a time at this level of production, Rose, whilst delivery probably costs double that per leaflet. Unfortunately, that size of leaflet isn't going to tell us much; it would still need to be fairly multi-page - in order to be comprehensive enough to be worth producing.
I suppose we are now going to get the government doing the scare tactic thingy they did with Scotland over the independance vote.
I thought the scare tactic thingy was what the SNP had used.
Plus the view already expressed by Hope that the government is the only group of people with enough info and brains to work out what's best for us.
Except that I only noted that the Government is the only group with the full financial info - I made no mention of whether or not any Government has ever had the brains to work out what is best for us.
As for the government being the only ones with the facts.............. I'm not convinced about that.
I'm only going by what opposition parties consistently claim - that they don't have the full picture.
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Huh! >:((:)) I obtained tickets yesterday for the 13/5/16 head-to-head with Desmond Swayne and Vince Cable, intent on hekling as much as possible wherever necessary!
ETA Well said, JeremyP.
Rose: Could you explain why approx 50p per house could have been 'better spent' , compared with the cost of the huge uncertainty which will result from the out vote.
Yes, if coming out of the EU is as big as a disaster as they claim, and only they have the full picture enough to make an informed choice , why are we voting on it?
It makes no sense to me. Democracy is fine, when it's an informed choice. This isn't going to be an informed choice.
Most people are disinterested in the EU, IMO. They are not going to be any more informed by June. Only more informed by different and opposing opinions.
We'll see how much interest it raises by how many people actually bother to vote.
50p could have been saved along with all the other costs involved in it.
I'm sure the NHS could have done with the money.
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34p each, those brochures cost.
Fielding questions from MPs in the Commons, Mr Lidington said the leaflets, which work out at "34p per household", were a "reasonable expression" of the government's case for staying in the EU.
He said the government "has not only the right, but a duty to explain to the electorate that when faced with a decision of this gravity the reasons why the government has come to the recommendation that it has done".
He said the pamphlets were "entirely lawful", and added : "Special rules limiting all government publications and communications will apply in the last 28 days of the referendum campaign."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36013363
It's caused quite a stir
>:(
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Here is a so called reality check from the BBC website answering the governments claims in the brochure.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35990076
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Allowing a vote on something that can be damaging to the UK, where a good percentage don't really understand the ramifications of the choice ?
What are they doing? Getting us to vote to destroy our country, out of ignorance? Haven't they got a duty of care, if most of us don't know enough about it to vote other than by gut reaction?
The government looks a bit scatty to me. They don't half do some scatty things.
The reason the referendum was proposed was because Cameron was running scared of UKIP at the general election. He offered the referendum as a way of winning dissaffected voters back - gambling on the fact that we would vote to stay in come the referendum. This is a gamble that has huge ramifications for all of us - regardless of which way any of us intend to vote.
And you are quite right to point out the relative ignorance on the matter - witness the fact that some people (influenced by unbelievably bad press reporting) are unable to tell the difference between the ECHR & the EU.
To my mind it is possibly the single most irresponsible thing he has done, and that is at the top of a pretty long list.
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And you are quite right to point out the relative ignorance on the matter - witness the fact that some people (influenced by unbelievably bad press reporting) are unable to tell the difference between the ECHR & the EU.
Some people? I'd guess most people.
How many people have any idea at all how the EU is run and how it makes laws? The difference between the Council of the European Union, The European Council and Council of Europe, anybody?
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But what if the young want to stay in? Of those under 25s I've spoken to on the issue, the figure is about 50/50. Not sure what the national figue is (after all, my non-scientific 'poll' is South Eastern Welsh, as opposed to UK wide)
Under 25s lean towards staying by 64% to 23%
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/22/eu-referendum-state-public-opinion/
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Huh! >:((:)) I obtained tickets yesterday for the 13/5/16 head-to-head with Desmond Swayne and Vince Cable, intent on hekling as much as possible wherever necessary!
ETA Well said, JeremyP.
Rose: Could you explain why approx 50p per house could have been 'better spent' , compared with the cost of the huge uncertainty which will result from the out vote.
It would have better spent if it was set alight, anything would have been better than spending it on staying as a part of Europe, not being able to control our borders alone, is reason enough to stay away.
Can't you see who will be in control of us if we let go any further susan?
ippy
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Our economy is likely to collapse; 'democracy' is a luxury when we can't afford to put food on the table.
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It would have better spent if it was set alight, anything would have been better than spending it on staying as a part of Europe, not being able to control our borders alone, is reason enough to stay away.
Why are you so frightened of our fellow Europeans?
Can't you see who will be in control of us if we let go any further susan?
Err... us, that is, us Europeans.
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Our economy is likely to collapse; 'democracy' is a luxury when we can't afford to put food on the table.
I note they've scared you Rhi, how come we survived quite well without them before we joined Europe? Nothing wrong with continuing to trade with Europe and they want to trade with us, why federation? we didn't vote for that when Harold oversaw the original referendum, we haven't had a say about this federation stuff, it all went ahead without Mr and Ms ordinary person having anything to do with it.
Leaving the EU isn't parting company with them, we're all friends anyway and trading partners, I don't know of any reason why we shouldn't remain friends and trading partners and also try to revitalise trade with our commonwealth partners and any other area we can find.
ippy
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Why are you so frightened of our fellow Europeans?
Err... us, that is, us Europeans.
If that's what you think fine you're entitled to your P O V, however I think you are mistaken, I must say I was overwhelmed by the concessions our PM managed to get from Brussels, maybe that's a sign of things to come?
SKoS we'll never agree on this one.
ippy
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Haven't even got it yet. However, on this occasion I find myself in the unprecedented position of agreeing with a Tory government about something. Most of the press is rabidly anti EU, so people should be given the other point of view.
If you are worried about the cost to the taxpayer, sending it back without postage will cost us even more.
No, it won't - the Royal Mail is now a company owned by shareholders.
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... and also try to revitalise trade with our commonwealth partners and any other area we can find.
ippy
Many of our 'commonwealth partners' already have trading agreements with places like India, Australia, NZ, Brazil, the States and canada, China, etc. Muscling in on those agreements could be problematic.
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Our economy is likely to collapse; 'democracy' is a luxury when we can't afford to put food on the table.
If only the people who fought the second world war agreed, ausverkauft billig Rhi.
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Many of our 'commonwealth partners' already have trading agreements with places like India, Australia, NZ, Brazil, the States and canada, China, etc. Muscling in on those agreements could be problematic.
My brother's an Australian, go out of your house knock on each door one after the other up and down the road or street where you live and I wonder how many of your neighbours like me have close family in various commonwealth countries, almost to a person English speakers, surly I don't need to spell out all of the rest, unless you want to make a polnt of pretending you don't understand me.
Ippy
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I can't wait to get my brochure after reading all this, just to see what it is all about. So I've been told, you have to register to be able to vote, something separate from being on the voters' register. I wonder why.
Correction: my informant got it wrong, you don't have to register again if already on the Register of Electors. It did sound a bit Big Brotherish.
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If only the people who fought the second world war agreed, ausverkauft billig Rhi.
The point I was trying to make (badly) is that the idea that leaving the EU will deliver some kind of golden democracy seems pretty hollow, hence the quotation marks.
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less than 50p each?
IMO taxpayers money could have been better spent.
Less than 20p a person to try to get them informed about the most important vote in their lives? I'd say it is damned well spent.
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No, it won't - the Royal Mail is now a company owned by shareholders.
Won't they try to extract the cost out of the addressee?
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Less than 20p a person to try to get them informed about the most important vote in their lives? I'd say it is damned well spent.
The problem is that some here and in the system don't want them to be informed, jeremy ;)
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The point I was trying to make (badly) is that the idea that leaving the EU will deliver some kind of golden democracy seems pretty hollow, hence the quotation marks.
Who has claimed it would be a golden democracy?
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Less than 20p a person to try to get them informed about the most important vote in their lives? I'd say it is damned well spent.
Fine J P now spend £9,000,000 on a let's leave Europe brochure too.
ippy
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Fine J P now spend £9,000,000 on a let's leave Europe brochure too.
ippy
Why? We can't leave Europe.
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Who has claimed it would be a golden democracy?
Ippy said we can get democracy back by leaving the EU. I don't think whatever is left is going to be any more democratic. But the costs will most likely be enormous.
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Why? We can't leave Europe.
;D
http://tinyurl.com/hgetq4j
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Why? We can't leave Europe.
I think we can and this is something we will never agree about.
ippy
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Ippy said we can get democracy back by leaving the EU. I don't think whatever is left is going to be any more democratic. But the costs will most likely be enormous.
We don't agree Rhi.
ippy
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Ippy said we can get democracy back by leaving the EU. I don't think whatever is left is going to be any more democratic. But the costs will most likely be enormous.
Did Ippy claim it would be 'golden'?
Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.
We just simply have different views on the potential risks and the rewards, which I think is fine.
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Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.
Why do you think there would be any more democratic accountability, if we left the EU?
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Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.
What evidence do you have that Britain out of the EU would have a more democratically accountable system of government, jakswan?
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What evidence do you have that Britain out of the EU would have a more democratically accountable system of government, jakswan?
All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.
http://sb.snp.org/brochan/democratic-case-for-indepen.html
You can flip most of that to UK\Euro.
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All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.
This isn't more democratic accountability, that's just moving some of the accountability away from the EU to the UK.
Why so parochial?
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All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.
http://sb.snp.org/brochan/democratic-case-for-indepen.html
You can flip most of that to UK\Euro.
Those were principles, not practice. I repeat, do you have any real-life evidence?
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Those were principles, not practice. I repeat, do you have any real-life evidence?
It is a matter of principle.
By the way irony meter just went off given how many threads you've had to retreat from when asked for evidence.
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Did Ippy claim it would be 'golden'?
Its a fair point, I fully accept there is a potential risk to the economy and that is a price we have to pay for a more democratically accountable system of government.
We just simply have different views on the potential risks and the rewards, which I think is fine.
No idea where the golden came from, nothing to do with me?
ippy
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It is a matter of principle.
Yes, it is: parochial Little Englander us-and-them or unity and cooperation.
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Yes, it is: parochial Little Englander us-and-them or unity and cooperation.
I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.
Blimey no wonder Leave are winning!
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I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.
Blimey no wonder Leave are winning!
I don't mind the Welsh.
ippy
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I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.
You fail to say what is wrong with political union.
At what point do you think it becomes a bad thing? Obviously, you don't like the EU level, what about the UK? Wales? Why not break up the whole of the UK into politically independent cities, towns and villages?
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You fail to say what is wrong with political union.
At what point do you think it becomes a bad thing? Obviously, you don't like the EU level, what about the UK? Wales? Why not break up the whole of the UK into politically independent cities, towns and villages?
I think political union should be broken down according to societies that share the same culture, language and where there are practical gains in sharing a macro economic system.
Are you going to be consistent, if we stay and the EU signs us up for TTIP should the US\Euro have political union?
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I'm Welsh, we cooperate and have unity with many countries on many issues without political union.
That's right, j; the Welsh have unity with many countries without having political union (other, of course, then England!!) At least the UK has a lesser degree of political unity with the EU than that!!
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I think political union should be broken down according to societies that share the same culture, language and where there are practical gains in sharing a macro economic system.
This is where we differ on principle. You seem to regard these as somehow insurmountable differences that divide "us" from "them". I regard them as practical obstacles that we should endeavour to overcome. I regard "us and them" thinking as undesirable and counterproductive. I think we should work towards as much unity as possible between the largest numbers possible.
Are you going to be consistent, if we stay and the EU signs us up for TTIP should the US\Euro have political union?
I'm sure we could start an entire separate discussion on TTIP and I think EU/US unity isn't going to happen any time soon. However; is it goal that we should aspire to in the long term? Yes.
As an aside, I have spent some time working in Germany, in the offices of a German owned multinational, and I felt quite at home; I found no great cultural divide. Sure, their native language was different but, interestingly, the only language requirement for working there was English.
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This is where we differ on principle. You seem to regard these as somehow insurmountable differences that divide "us" from "them".
No never said that.
I regard them as practical obstacles that we should endeavour to overcome.
I don't think we should.
I regard "us and them" thinking as undesirable and counterproductive.
You best stop doing it then.
I think we should work towards as much unity as possible between the largest numbers possible.
Which I think is fine but the best economic policy for Germany isn't the same one that should apply to Greece.
I'm sure we could start an entire separate discussion on TTIP and I think EU/US unity isn't going to happen any time soon. However; is it goal that we should aspire to in the long term? Yes.
So you are against any from of devolution, a global centralised bureaucracy your overall aim?
As an aside, I have spent some time working in Germany, in the offices of a German owned multinational, and I felt quite at home; I found no great cultural divide. Sure, their native language was different but, interestingly, the only language requirement for working there was English.
I never claimed there was a cultural divide just that is different.
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No never said that.
That's why I said 'seem' - feel free to explain.
I don't think we should.
So, we differ in principle - that's what I said.
You best stop doing it then.
In what way do you think I'm using "them and us" thinking?
So you are against any from of devolution, a global centralised bureaucracy your overall aim?
I didn't say that; of course there should be local, regional and national government - I just regard unity above those levels as desirable. It's about wanting to unite, rather than divide.
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There was some ghastly woman in the audience of Question Time last night (I was listening on Five Live) who said, her voice dripping with, well, oozing with, in my opinion, sickly emotion, 'I just want my country back.' She obviously thought that all should agree with her. Yuck!
Fortunately, one of the phone-in voices was from an 18-year-old at university with a fairer view of the future for her generation.
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That's why I said 'seem' - feel free to explain.
You want me to explain why you seem to think something?
So, we differ in principle - that's what I said.
In what way do you think I'm using "them and us" thinking?
By using the terms, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using those terms.
I didn't say that; of course there should be local, regional and national government - I just regard unity above those levels as desirable. It's about wanting to unite, rather than divide.
I'm confused you want unity but divided?
I'm all for unifying the EU under a free trade agreement but because the economies and politics are so diverse across the EU I think that is a bad idea to have political union. Its not about dividing we have close ties with the USA but I think political union with the US would be crazy.
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You want me to explain why you seem to think something?
Seriously? I suggest going back over the conversation and trying again.
By using the terms, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using those terms.
Right, so if I want to oppose (say) homophobia, I shouldn't actually use the term, otherwise I'd be guilty of homophobia?
I'm confused you want unity but divided?
Sorry if you find multiple levels of government confusing. Being in Wales, I'd have thought you'd be more familiar with it.
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Seriously? I suggest going back over the conversation and trying again.
I'd suggest you do the same.
Right, so if I want to oppose (say) homophobia, I shouldn't actually use the term, otherwise I'd be guilty of homophobia?
That is not a good analogy, if you started talking about us (heterosexuals) and them (homosexuals) that would be divisive. You were the first person to use those terms as follows:-
You seem to regard these as somehow insurmountable differences that divide "us" from "them".
Sorry if you find multiple levels of government confusing. Being in Wales, I'd have thought you'd be more familiar with it.
I know you are struggling to follow I'll try to dumb it down for you.
You want political and economic unity across nation states, as I recall I asked you about EU\US and you replied it should be the 'overall aim'.
Yet you also want devolution which seems inconsistent. Lets take a practical example Greece vote in a government, yet this Government can't enact many of its economic policies because much of its economic policy is dictated by the EU.
Lets use another I think we should be able to introduce a large tariff on Chinese steel to protect workers in this country but we can't because this policy is controlled by the EU. I suppose you want unity with China as well another 'overall aim' of yours?
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I'd suggest you do the same.
I'm more than happy with the way this part of the conversation has gone - I'll leave others to judge.
That is not a good analogy, if you started talking about us (heterosexuals) and them (homosexuals) that would be divisive. You were the first person to use those terms as follows:-
Try to pay attention. This is what was said:-
I regard "us and them" thinking as undesirable and counterproductive.
You best stop doing it then.
In what way do you think I'm using "them and us" thinking?
By using the terms, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using those terms.
Compare to:-
I regard homophobia as undesirable and counterproductive.
You best stop doing it then.
In what way do you think I'm being homophobic?
By using the term, if you don't want to think of it that way then you best stop using the term.
Get it?
I know you are struggling to follow I'll try to dumb it down for you.
You want political and economic unity across nation states, as I recall I asked you about EU\US and you replied it should be the 'overall aim'.
I said it was a goal to aspire to in the long term. I don't see why you have such a problem with multiple layers of government.
The EU is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong. The UK is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong, too. I don't regard that as a basis to completely abandon either.
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I'm more than happy with the way this part of the conversation has gone - I'll leave others to judge.
Likewise.
I said it was a goal to aspire to in the long term. I don't see why you have such a problem with multiple layers of government.
Please try to pay attention, I do not have a problem with multiple levels of government. You are the one who wants widespread unity as much as possible and wants multiple levels of government there seems to be some inconsistency in your position.
NHS prescriptions are free in Wales but not in England, do you favour this because it doesn't fit with your unity agenda?
The EU is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong. The UK is far from perfect and gets quite a lot wrong, too. I don't regard that as a basis to completely abandon either.
When I forward that argument I'll be sure to respond to it.
The argument I have forwarded is that the British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws, etc. You disagree, e.g. you seem to think the economic policy of Greece is best controlled by the EU, trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.
I think the EU because if its size and structure is undemocratic, and because of the nature of diverse range of countries within it, is unable come up with economic policy and trade agreements that suit all member states.
Please engage with the argument I forward, if you don't understand just ask.
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Who has yet to receive the EU brochure mentioned in the thread title?
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Who has yet to receive the EU brochure mentioned in the thread title?
We haven't had ours.
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I haven't had mine and am beginning to fell left out.
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I think my copy just might have fallen in the bin, together with the rest of the junk mail.
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I think my copy just might have fallen in the bin, together with the rest of the junk mail.
Well, don't blame the Government for failing to inform you of their side of the argument, then.
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... I do not have a problem with multiple levels of government. You are the one who wants widespread unity as much as possible and wants multiple levels of government there seems to be some inconsistency in your position.
...
NHS prescriptions are free in Wales but not in England, do you favour this because it doesn't fit with your unity agenda?
If you can't understand that unity at a higher level doesn't mean uniformity at every level, then I can't help you.
...British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws, etc....
Why? Why do you choose 'British' as your chosen tribe to identify with, rather than Welsh or European?
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Well, don't blame the Government for failing to inform you of their side of the argument, then.
I'm quite capable of making my own judgements without propaganda from either side of the argument Hope.
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I'm quite capable of making my own judgements without propaganda from either side of the argument Hope.
Assuming that you have got the information to base that judgement on. Thus far, as far as I can see, all we have been provided with is propaganda and personal opinion.
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If you can't understand that unity at a higher level doesn't mean uniformity at every level, then I can't help you.
I'm asking you to define 'higher level unity' and why its a good thing.
Why? Why do you choose 'British' as your chosen tribe to identify with, rather than Welsh or European?
I'll just repeat what you ignored.
I think the EU because if its size and structure is undemocratic, and because of the nature of diverse range of countries within it, is unable come up with economic policy and trade agreements that suit all member states.
You seem to think the economic policy of Greece is best controlled by the EU, trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.
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... trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.
I'd suggest that the TTIP idea would be a far more important topic to have been referendum-ing about. Mind yu, that would have required it to be properly explained and understood. It seems that the US are adamant that this can't occur.
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Assuming that you have got the information to base that judgement on. Thus far, as far as I can see, all we have been provided with is propaganda and personal opinion.
Information that appears through the letterbox tends not to be unbiased, whether it is selling pizzas or politics.
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I think the EU because if its size and structure is undemocratic...
Why do you think its size and structure make it undemocratic?
The iniquitous voting system for general elections and the absurd anachorism of the House of Lords, makes the UK undemocratic, IMO.
...and because of the nature of diverse range of countries within it, is unable come up with economic policy and trade agreements that suit all member states.
The trade arrangements seem to be what the leave campaign want to keep - they keep telling us we will be able to negotiate access to the single market.
You seem to think the economic policy of Greece is best controlled by the EU, trade agreements like TTIP is best negotiated at the EU level.
I haven't, as yet, said anything about economic policy. Greece had debt problems and much of what happened was because it was part of, and wanted to remain part of, the Eurozone. This is not a referendum about joining the Euro.
There are parts of the UK (notably Scotland) that don't think the Westminster government's economic policies suit them, and we have devolution. The UK government has far more autonomy in the EU than Scotland does in the UK. So again: what is so special about the UK that means you draw the line there?
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Information that appears through the letterbox tends not to be unbiased, whether it is selling pizzas or politics.
Does it? Not sure that you can call tax-band letters, council-tax and utility bill letters, letters from friends and groups one is associated with, subscription magazines, etc. - which make up the bulk of what comes through my letterbox can be regarded as biased.
Or is it that, because such things run counter to your own opinion, they are biased?
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I had a dream last night based on this thread! I discovered a woman with a German Shepherd dog trying to remove the EU brochure from my letterbox. When challenged she said that she was trying to save the country from staying in the EU, and offered me her dog as a reward if I voted to leave! I told her I didn't want her dog, and would definitely be voting to stay in the EU, at which point I awoke. ;D
I still haven't had the brochure in reality.
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I still haven't had the brochure ...
Likewise.
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Does it? Not sure that you can call tax-band letters, council-tax and utility bill letters, letters from friends and groups one is associated with, subscription magazines, etc. - which make up the bulk of what comes through my letterbox can be regarded as biased.
Or is it that, because such things run counter to your own opinion, they are biased?
Obviously I'm not referring to communications with friends - but it's a fact of life Hope, that the information that is forced upon you is always biased and generally has some kind of hidden agenda - that's what the advertising industry is all about.
If you want to find some approximation to the truth, you need to do your own digging, preferably using many sources.
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Does it? Not sure that you can call tax-band letters, council-tax and utility bill letters, letters from friends and groups one is associated with, subscription magazines, etc. - which make up the bulk of what comes through my letterbox can be regarded as biased.
Or is it that, because such things run counter to your own opinion, they are biased?
Like I said being able to control our borders on it's own is enough for me Hope, nothing to do with who, it's largely to do with the numbers, there are far to many people comming here as a flood, this flood like speed has to be stemed to manageable proportions and we need to choose who we have here as well, Ausie fashon, nothing to do with race or where the imigrants come from it's to do with the numbers and the skills we need here in the U K and haven't got enough of our own.
Everything I hear about the free movement of E U citizens, doesn't indicate that it will be droped, anytime soon whatever we suggest, well that's fine for them as far as I'm concerned good luck to them, just don't take us here in the U K along with you.
Of course I have other reasons for not wanting to be a part of the E U but as I said the above is enough reason for me on it's own.
I don't suppose that brochure is any more or any less biased than any other, it's against the spirit of fair play, had they spent equal amounts on two brochures one for and one against we would be discussing the facts, rather than more of how those underhanded tory bastards have reverted to type.
ippy
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Why do you think its size and structure make it undemocratic?
It attempts to represent a population that has to wide a range of political views and the EU commission is not directly elected yet initiates legislation.
The iniquitous voting system for general elections and the absurd anachorism of the House of Lords, makes the UK undemocratic, IMO.
Democracy isn't binary, IMO the UK is more democratic than the EU.
The trade arrangements seem to be what the leave campaign want to keep - they keep telling us we will be able to negotiate access to the single market.
A trade agreement between say the US negotiated by the EU, TTIP, and the UK negotiating its own agreement with the US even you can understand is not the same?
I haven't, as yet, said anything about economic policy. Greece had debt problems and much of what happened was because it was part of, and wanted to remain part of, the Eurozone. This is not a referendum about joining the Euro.
We are debating something which you support, 'unity' which you want at 'higher levels', which is your argument for remain. Surely a united currency and economic policy is 'higher level', its a position you seem unable to define much less defend.
There are parts of the UK (notably Scotland) that don't think the Westminster government's economic policies suit them, and we have devolution. The UK government has far more autonomy in the EU than Scotland does in the UK. So again: what is so special about the UK that means you draw the line there?
See previous posts.
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Everything I hear about the free movement of E U citizens, doesn't indicate that it will be droped, anytime soon whatever we suggest, well that's fine for them as far as I'm concerned good luck to them, just don't take us here in the U K along with you.
Having control of our own borders will amke no difference to the number of people trying to enter via Calais and Dunkirk illegally, ippy; while getting rid of the EU citizens will probably see the tax-take drop dramatically as the vast majority of those immigrants work and pay tax - even if at a low level. Furthermore, we will end up with vital jobs which British people have shunned/refused to do being left undone - such as fruit and veg picking. Will contolling our own bordewrs solve the gang-master abuses that we've seen so much in recent years. I doubt it. So, perhaps you can illustrate the benefits you see.
I don't suppose that brochure is any more or any less biased than any other, it's against the spirit of fair play, had they spent equal amounts on two brochures one for and one against we would be discussing the facts, rather than more of how those underhanded tory bastards have reverted to type.
Have to say that I've seen a considerable number of thin brochures (as opposed to leaflets) produced by UKIP and the like over the last year or two, explaining their arguments. I suspect that they probably cost well over £9million - even if it was private money.
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Democracy isn't binary, IMO the UK is more democratic than the EU.
As I understand it, legislative bills are created by EU bureaucrats in Europe, in the same way that they are produced by UK bureaucrats here in the UK. In both cases, the two parliaments will be given more or less time to debate such bills and then asked to vote on them. What's the difference? The fact that Europe is catering for a far larger number of peple, and probably a far broader range of ideas, doesn't mean that it is necessarily less democratic than the UK. The UK parliamentary system allows for a surprising amount of non-democratic decision-making.
A trade agreement between say the US negotiated by the EU, TTIP, and the UK negotiating its own agreement with the US even you can understand is not the same?
TTIP would never be negotiated with a single nation, j. It happens to be one of the things I believe will be highly damaging to both the UK and Europe - and would have been quite happy to have seen us opt out of it.
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I think we can and this is something we will never agree about.
No we can't. The UK is solidly anchored 25 miles from France. We can leave the EU but the EU is not Europe.
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All policies that applied to Britain would be made in Britain, or devolved to more local governments.
So the most important thing is where the seat of government is located in geographical terms. This sounds a little bit like nationalism to me.
In point of fact, what matters is how we choose the decision makers not where they convene. Our system is loosely described as democratic but it's a poor democracy that allows the head honchos of the national church (of one part of the country) to have permanent seats in government.
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So the most important thing is where the seat of government is located in geographical terms. This sounds a little bit like nationalism to me.
So?
In point of fact, what matters is how we choose the decision makers not where they convene. Our system is loosely described as democratic but it's a poor democracy that allows the head honchos of the national church (of one part of the country) to have permanent seats in government.
Poor maybe, the EU is poorer.
Do the remain have any positive arguments we've had a lot of 'yes its shit but it will be scary if we leave' and fluff like 'unity at higher levels'.
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Having control of our own borders will make no difference to the number of people trying to enter via Calais and Dunkirk illegally, ippy; while getting rid of the EU citizens will probably see the tax-take drop dramatically as the vast majority of those immigrants work and pay tax - even if at a low level. Furthermore, we will end up with vital jobs which British people have shunned/refused to do being left undone - such as fruit and veg picking. Will controlling our own borders solve the gang-master abuses that we've seen so much in recent years. I doubt it. So, perhaps you can illustrate the benefits you see.
Have to say that I've seen a considerable number of thin brochures (as opposed to leaflets) produced by UKIP and the like over the last year or two, explaining their arguments. I suspect that they probably cost well over £9million - even if it was private money.
Couldn't disagree with you more on all points, I wont be altering my view.
The UKIP brochures weren't financed by the UK government, yours and my money.
ippy
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Couldn't disagree with you more on all points, I wont be altering my view.
That's what you're entitled to do, ippy
The UKIP brochures weren't financed by the UK government ..
Thanks for confirming what I wrote.
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...This sounds a little bit like nationalism to me.
So?
The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".
Why British?
Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.
Poor maybe, the EU is poorer.
In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.
Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.
The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.
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So?
The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".
Why British?
Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.
In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.
Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.
The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.
A good post. :)
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So?
The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".
Why British?
Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.
In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.
Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.
The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.
It's the Little Englanders who peddle the fantasy that we can once again relive the glory days of Empire, when the reality is that even the modern-day superpowers need seek trading partnerships.
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So?
The stench nationalism is what I find so distasteful about the leave campaign; it's all (as you said before) "British Government should have more control of British borders, British economy, British trade agreements, British laws".
Why British?
Nationalism: a stone's throw from xenophobia and a short stroll from racism.
Ahh more hysterical rhetoric, you are for regional / national governments stop being a hypocrit and come up with something more than spouting rubbish.
In what way is the EU a poorer democracy? Given the failings of UK democracy, I think leaving the EU would make things worse.
So you honestly think the EU is more democratic then the UK?
Having said that, I really can't see this in terms of the practicalities; the economy, democracy, immigration; they are all debatable.
The important thing, for me, is whether we are isolationist or inclusive. Encouraging people to identify with larger groups and opposing parochial and nationalistic thinking are aims worth pursuing for their own sake.
So in other words you can't offer an coherent practical argument its just you hate Britain and love the EU.
The EURO is a united currency but can't even claim to support that let alone start defending it.
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It's the Little Englanders who peddle the fantasy that we can once again relive the glory days of Empire, when the reality is that even the modern-day superpowers need seek trading partnerships.
Ahh the hard left who live in a fantasy world who dream up pretend arguments that are made by those they disagree, I've not heard one remain campaigner claim they did not want trading partnerships.
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Ahh the hard left who live in a fantasy world who dream up pretend arguments that are made by those they disagree, I've not heard one remain campaigner claim they did not want trading partnerships.
;D That's a first ! . . . it's a very long time since anyone accused me of being Left-wing, let alone 'Hard Left'. I'm usually accused of being on the other end of the political spectrum.
Yes, I acknowledge that the BREXITors would seek trading agreements with the rest of the world. The fantasy is in believing that a small country can somehow negotiation better deals than the worlds largest trading block.
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Yes, I acknowledge that the BREXITors would seek trading agreements with the rest of the world. The fantasy is in believing that a small country can somehow negotiation better deals than the worlds largest trading block.
The country with the fifth largest economy in the world isn't small.
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The country with the fifth largest economy in the world isn't small.
I think that is slightly misleading, our economy is about a sixth the size of the US or the EU as a whole. On our own we don't have much economic muscle to negotiate with the 'big boys' and with the world economic slow-down, there is always the spectre of protectionism lurking.
The world could become a very tough place for a small country without friends.
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The country with the fifth largest economy in the world isn't small.
Depends how you look at it.
How would the UK do in negotiating an alternative to ttip with the USA? I'd expect the USA to walk right over us - nearly all the objectionable parts in ttip are actually supported by the UK - though we might not be told that.
Similarly with China - it seems to be the UK that prevented tariffs being imposed against dumping of steel by China - although all the hand-wringing here has been about the EU preventing UK measures.
With India, we have a long history and a mostly free hand, but have got nowhere.
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I think that is slightly misleading, our economy is about a sixth the size of the US or the EU as a whole. On our own we don't have much economic muscle to negotiate with the 'big boys' and with the world economic slow-down, there is always the spectre of protectionism lurking.
The world could become a very tough place for a small country without friends.
German car makers and French farmers will not be very welcoming if Britain decided to impose tariffs on their products. We are not a small country economically, being able to negotiate trade agreements is going to be easier since it will not need the approval of all EU states to proceed.
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Depends how you look at it.
How would the UK do in negotiating an alternative to ttip with the USA? I'd expect the USA to walk right over us - nearly all the objectionable parts in ttip are actually supported by the UK - though we might not be told that.
So in any negotiation the bigger party dictates the terms, utter nonsense.
Similarly with China - it seems to be the UK that prevented tariffs being imposed against dumping of steel by China - although all the hand-wringing here has been about the EU preventing UK measures.
With India, we have a long history and a mostly free hand, but have got nowhere.
The EU has been trying to do a deal with India for years.
Our trade with India has grown over several years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34767180
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Ahh more hysterical rhetoric, you are for regional / national governments stop being a hypocrit and come up with something more than spouting rubbish.
You didn't answer my question. I'll add another: in what way do you think I'm being hypocritical?
So you honestly think the EU is more democratic then the UK?
Again, you didn't answer my question. I'll answer yours: I think it's a close call. Ideally both should be reformed but given the way they are, I think both is probably better than just the UK.
So in other words you can't offer an coherent practical argument its just you hate Britain and love the EU.
I neither love nor hate either (and find your language significant). I think it's excessive affection for, and identification with, the UK that is the problem with the leavers. I'd rather people identified with other groupings as well; both more local and more international. We shouldn't divide the world into us good ol' British and them Johnny Foreigners...
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German car makers and French farmers will not be very welcoming if Britain decided to impose tariffs on their products. We are not a small country economically, being able to negotiate trade agreements is going to be easier since it will not need the approval of all EU states to proceed.
And that demonstrates the dilemma perfectly. Of course the UK market is important to many countries and the EU provides a good framework for free trade with our partners.
However, a trade deal works two ways. If markets are to be open and without tariffs there needs to be protection against 'dumping' - and that means rules . . . the kind of tedious rules that the BREXITors constantly accuse Brussels of forcing on us.
In the event that we leave the EU, the best we could hope for would be a rough approximation to what we have already - and we would still have to follow the rules! We would still need to enshrine EU laws in our legal system - but we wouldn't have any input in framing those laws.
The EU is currently moving towards a trade deal with the USA (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) In economic terms this would be a deal between equals. If Britain attempted to make such a deal alone it would not be between equals, America would be calling the shots. Brussels would seem a very benign place compared to Washington.
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You didn't answer my question. I'll add another: in what way do you think I'm being hypocritical?
Didn't see you asked a question. You claim you want unity but want to divide governments locally and nationally.
Again, you didn't answer my question. I'll answer yours: I think it's a close call. Ideally both should be reformed but given the way they are, I think both is probably better than just the UK.
Already answered that question. I think differently.
I neither love nor hate either (and find your language significant). I think it's excessive affection for, and identification with, the UK that is the problem with the leavers. I'd rather people identified with other groupings as well; both more local and more international. We shouldn't divide the world into us good ol' British and them Johnny Foreigners...
I'm not dividing the world into 'good ol' British and them Johnny Foreigners', just advocating for a government based on its economy, culture, size, history.
A reformed democratic EU containing UK, Germany, France, Denmark, & other countries with economies of the same stage of development I think would be fine.
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And that demonstrates the dilemma perfectly. Of course the UK market is important to many countries and the EU provides a good framework for free trade with our partners.
A free trade agreement can continue.
However, a trade deal works two ways. If markets are to be open and without tariffs there needs to be protection against 'dumping' - and that means rules . . . the kind of tedious rules that the BREXITors constantly accuse Brussels of forcing on us.
I don't think the rules are tedious, many of those rules are set by the WTO, the Uk can have its seat back when we leave.
In the event that we leave the EU, the best we could hope for would be a rough approximation to what we have already - and we would still have to follow the rules! We would still need to enshrine EU laws in our legal system - but we wouldn't have any input in framing those laws.
Such as?
The EU is currently moving towards a trade deal with the USA (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) In economic terms this would be a deal between equals. If Britain attempted to make such a deal alone it would not be between equals, America would be calling the shots. Brussels would seem a very benign place compared to Washington.
Again the idea that in any negotiation the bigger party dictates the terms is utter nonsense.
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Brexit money for NHS my arse.......it will go to farmers.
Cut migration after Brexit my arse all that is promise is that ''control'' goes to Westminster. Expect even cheaper labour.
''We'' my arse....as usual ''they'' will have control.
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A free trade agreement can continue.
It won't just automatically continue beyond two years, it will have to be re-negotiated and if we are lucky it will be similar to our current deal - but it will have strings attached.
I don't think the rules are tedious, many of those rules are set by the WTO, the Uk can have its seat back when we leave.
A large amount of it is technical stuff about product standards - not the kind of material that interests most people, though for some reason it enrages UKIP.
Such as?
Norway and Switzerland have to comply to a large amount of EU law in order to trade, there is no reason to believe that any deal we got would be significantly different.
Again the idea that in any negotiation the bigger party dictates the terms is utter nonsense.
I think that is a very naive view - in any negotiation power counts.
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Was talking to folk at church this morning - no-one has had it. Was it only for England?
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It won't just automatically continue beyond two years, it will have to be re-negotiated and if we are lucky it will be similar to our current deal - but it will have strings attached.
Know the future do you?
A large amount of it is technical stuff about product standards - not the kind of material that interests most people, though for some reason it enrages UKIP.
Take it up with UKIP then.
Norway and Switzerland have to comply to a large amount of EU law in order to trade, there is no reason to believe that any deal we got would be significantly different.
They have to comply with regulations as does any country when exporting to another. So the UK has to comply with US regulations when exporting goods to the US, same with Australia, etc.
I think that is a very naive view - in any negotiation power counts.
Lets try a practical example I want to provide a service for my company, it will take you ten weeks and we're going to pay you £1. You going to do it or would you tell us where to go?
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Know the future do you?
I'd certainly put money on it.
Take it up with UKIP then.
The silly buggers are in your camp - you try and get some sense out of them!
They have to comply with regulations as does any country when exporting to another. So the UK has to comply with US regulations when exporting goods to the US, same with Australia, etc.
Our relationship with the EU is closer than the US or Australia (at least from the trade POV) there are no tariffs and free movements of goods and labour - major advantages if you are running a company that trades with Europe.
Lets try a practical example I want to provide a service for my company, it will take you ten weeks and we're going to pay you £1. You going to do it or would you tell us where to go?
You chose an extreme example but it's not a million miles from the way that businesses in certain countries treat their workers!
If you have the power, you call the shots. Of course we would get deals to access world markets, but no one will be doing us any favours.
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Was talking to folk at church this morning - no-one has had it. Was it only for England?
The folk at the Church can read, wow!
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That's what you're entitled to do, ippy
Thanks for confirming what I wrote.
Hope that second part of this post of yours, I wouldn't advocate having you hung up by your thumbs for it.
I posted : The UKIP brochures weren't financed by the UK government ..
Your answer: Thanks for confirming what I wrote.
In the context of our exchange that has to be one of the more outrageous examples of your penchant, for quoting out of context, quite dishonest of you again.
Moderator: content removed.
ippy
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If you look back at Hope's post, ippy, he does say, ''..even if it was private money''.
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Hope that second part of this post of yours, I wouldn't advocate having you hung up by your thumbs for it.
I posted : The UKIP brochures weren't financed by the UK government ..
Your answer: Thanks for confirming what I wrote.
In the context of our exchange that has to be one of the more outrageous examples of your penchant, for quoting out of context, quite dishonest of you again.
As Brownie points out in her post, ippy, your comment about the UKIP brochures not being financed by the UK government simply restated the point that I had made in the original post - ' ... even if it was private money.'
I look forward to an apology for your subsequent language.
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As Brownie points out in her post, ippy, your comment about the UKIP brochures not being financed by the UK government simply restated the point that I had made in the original post - ' ... even if it was private money.'
I look forward to an apology for your subsequent language.
The whole point as conveyed by my posts referred to public money being spent on propaganda, private money provided for or against the referendum had nothing to do with any of my posts sent in your general direction.
You have an unfailing history of misrepresentation, the written equivalent of re editing the tape, which is dishonest;Moderator: content removed.
ippy
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The whole point as conveyed by my posts referred to public money being spent on propaganda, private money provided for or against the referendum had nothing to do with any of my posts sent in your general direction.
You have an unfailing history of misrepresentation, the written equivalent of re editing the tape, which is dishonest;Moderator: quoted content removed.
ippy
What has Hope said that in this case is incorrect, never mind deliberate misrepresentation?
And just to note using spmeone's previous deliberate misrepresenting something to claim that they are in this case, is the ad hominem fallacy
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The whole point as conveyed by my posts referred to public money being spent on propaganda, private money provided for or against the referendum had nothing to do with any of my posts sent in your general direction.
You have an unfailing history of misrepresentation, the written equivalent of re editing the tape, which is dishonest; Moderator: quoted content removed.
Moderator: content removed.
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What has Hope said that in this case is incorrect, never mind deliberate misrepresentation?
And just to note using spmeone's previous deliberate misrepresenting something to claim that they are in this case, is the ad hominem fallacy
If it bothers you NS you read back to the posts concerned and make whatever you please.
ippy
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Moderator: quoted content removed.
I don't owe you any kind of an apology Hope.
ippy
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I don't owe you any kind of an apology Hope.
ippy
OK, I'll treat you as someone who's comments needn't be regarded with any value.
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Moderator:
Can I just point out that this thread is about the EU brochure, so feel free to discuss that. However, it is not about other issues on other subjects on other threads and we will be reviewing some of these posts shortly.
As part of this, given the subject matter, this thread is on the wrong Board so we'll consider moving it.
Update: having had a quick look I'm going to remove any off-topic references to homosexuality and the like, however these are couched. I'm going to lock the thread temporarily since I'm on a hand-held and since I need to document my actions. I'll need some time but will unlock when I'm finished.
Further update: I've now removed content from posts made by both ippy and Hope, and also any quotes of the Modded content. I'm going to unlock this now and move the thread to 'Politics' in the hope that there will be no further instances of off-topic comments.
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When Am I going to get my brochure from a well heeled out campaign telling me exactly what will happen in the event of a Brexit........?
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Perhaps the Out campaign ought to be allowed the same sum to send out a leaflet explaining their position.
They are - in the campaign proper both official campaigning groups are allowed a leaflet drop to all households.
And I suspect this will also cost a similar amount given that the main cost is delivery. So it's a bit hypocritical of the leave campaign complaining about the cost to the tax payer when their own campaigning material will cost a similar amount to the tax payer in due course.
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When Am I going to get my brochure from a well heeled out campaign telling me exactly what will happen in the event of a Brexit........?
The only thing we can be sure of is that if we leave the EU the people in charge of the negotiations will be (a combination of) David Cameron, George Osborne, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson.
Which would be fine if the negotiations were about how much money to out into off-shore investment vehicles and which butler was in charge of the martinis....
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I thought we were the fifth largest economy in the world, sounds pretty good in trading terms to me, so Europe will be cutting us out of all sorts of trading avenues, why would they be doing that?
There's so many options? when we have at last broken away from them we can have and control our borders and do business with everybody, including European countries; why wouldn't most of them want to do business with us here in the UK?
ippy
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Morning just a quick look at this dying forum and for floo who wants to stay in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokwQi15pO0
If you have a brain you will vote out.
~TW~
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Morning just a quick look at this dying forum and for floo who wants to stay in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokwQi15pO0
If you have a brain you will vote out.
~TW~
;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D
That reply sums you up,you have not had time to watch it,you are a complete birdbrain and a clown now go away and watch it.
~TW~
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I thought we were the fifth largest economy in the world
We are currently part of the largest economy in the world - the EU. Why would we trade being top for being 5th.
And of course who has the bargaining power in negotiations between the largest economy in the world and the 5th largest, which is 6 times smaller. Not rocket science.
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We are currently part of the largest economy in the world - the EU. Why would we trade being top for being 5th.
And of course who has the bargaining power in negotiations between the largest economy in the world and the 5th largest, which is 6 times smaller. Not rocket science.
You need to brush down your imagination have you noticed with all this trade and bargaining power we are skint. Your Rocket science keeps backfiring.
Watch the video.
~TW~
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Morning just a quick look at this dying forum and for floo who wants to stay in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokwQi15pO0
If you have a brain you will vote out.
~TW~
::)
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::)
so Rose did you watch the video?
~TW~
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You need to brush down your imagination have you noticed with all this trade and bargaining power we are skint. Your Rocket science keeps backfiring.
Watch the video.
~TW~
Except we aren't skint. We've been sold a narrative telling us we are skint. There is a difference.
You appear to be stupid enough to believe it.
This is an interesting read:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/04/britain-not-broke
Although from 2013 the main thrust of the argument still applies.
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So we turn off our street lights because we have lots of cash and close our library's just for fun
http://www.cobdencentre.org/2010/08/the-uk-is-broke/ Try again but get it right.
~TW~
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That reply sums you up,you have not had time to watch it,you are a complete birdbrain and a clown now go away and watch it.
~TW~
Have you a hangover?
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Even
JC wants to leave https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVJZTxbCaKA
~TW~
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So we turn off our street lights because we have lots of cash and close our library's just for fun
http://www.cobdencentre.org/2010/08/the-uk-is-broke/ Try again but get it right.
~TW~
No we do those things because the government has a particular agenda.
So we were broke in 2010 and yet here we all still are.
You try again.
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No we do those things because the government has a particular agenda.
So we were broke in 2010 and yet here we all still are.
You try again.
Not difficult so the EU is wonderful fantastic the greatest thing since sliced bread,so why are we having a referendum.
~TW~
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Not difficult so the EU is wonderful fantastic the greatest thing since sliced bread,so why are we having a referendum.
~TW~
Easy peasy: just so that the Tory party can sort out its internal politics: that is the theory anyway, but the reality is that whatever the result they may well implode.
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Easy peasy: just so that the Tory party can sort out its internal politics: that is the theory anyway, but the reality is that whatever the result they may well implode.
Good night Gordon go back to bed.
~TW~
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so Rose did you watch the video?
~TW~
Yes, and noticed all the other videos that came up with it, agenda 21 etc.
It's a bit OTT to compare the EU with Gulag and the old USSR,IMO.
You could compare it to the USA , just as easily.
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...so why are we having a referendum.
Because the prime minister is an idiot who is incapable of standing up to the even bigger idiots in UKIP and in his own party, perhaps...?
:)
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Yes, and noticed all the other videos that came up with it, agenda 21 etc.
It's a bit OTT to compare the EU with Gulag and the old USSR,IMO.
You could compare it to the USA , just as easily.
I did not ask you to look at the other videos but here is one you might like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYGqsER7kXQ
~TW~
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Not difficult so the EU is wonderful fantastic the greatest thing since sliced bread,so why are we having a referendum.
~TW~
I never said that - I merely pointed out that your assertion that we are skint is incorrect.
As far as I can see we are having the referendum because Cameron was running scared of UKIP before the last general election. Sheer, naked politics. And as I have previously said possibly the single most stupid thing he has done.
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Because the prime minister is an idiot who is incapable of standing up to the even bigger idiots in UKIP and in his own party, perhaps...?
:)
So you are following the prime minister who you say is an idiot and he wants to stay in so what makes you want to follow an idiot?
~TW~
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So you are following the prime minister who you say is an idiot and he wants to stay in so what makes you want to follow an idiot?
Even idiots can't be wrong about everything.
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I did not ask you to look at the other videos but here is one you might like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYGqsER7kXQ
~TW~
Nigel Farage?
Here is one for you TW
http://youtu.be/VvIPSY_Sbfg
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This one I like
http://youtu.be/O37yJBFRrfg
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We are currently part of the largest economy in the world - the EU. Why would we trade being top for being 5th.
And of course who has the bargaining power in negotiations between the largest economy in the world and the 5th largest, which is 6 times smaller. Not rocket science.
I've more faith in our country than you seem to have and I don't look forward to the end result of staying in where the larger countries will gradually hold more and more sway as time passes.
Having said the above just being in control of our borders alone makes it worth leaving, nothing to do with where people come from or whatever shade they happen to be on the Dulux chart, Ausie style will do for me, anyway why shouldn't we still trade and get on with our European neighbours/friends, they can do their own thing with their governments and so would we be doing the same thing, why wouldn't they or anyone else want to trade with any large economy country.
I didn't vote for the EEC all of those years back and looking at all of the arrangements that have been made without any of us having a say, even those that voted for the EEC didn't vote for a federation, there's something wrong with the whole way this has been arranged above our heads, I can remember Brown sneaking over to Lisbon avoiding as much press coverage as he possibly could and nothing revealed about whatever it was he was supposed to be there for.
No thanks Proff D we part company on this one.
ippy
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We are currently part of the largest economy in the world - the EU. Why would we trade being top for being 5th.
And of course who has the bargaining power in negotiations between the largest economy in the world and the 5th largest, which is 6 times smaller. Not rocket science.
Who has the bargaining power in negotiations between the one country who exports much less then it imports. Not brain surgery.
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Nigel Farage?
Here is one for you TW
http://youtu.be/VvIPSY_Sbfg
Yes looked at it nothing wrong with trade,but you want to be governed.No I prefer our government in the interest of us any British government that is not the problem,your government no.
~TW~
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Yes looked at it nothing wrong with trade,but you want to be governed.No I prefer our government in the interest of us any British government that is not the problem,your government no.
~TW~
Last time I looked you have the same Government as me.
I'm still learning about the EU.
I've not learnt enough yet.
I've got till June.
I can't say I know enough about it yet to consider voting.
Listening to opinions on it, is one thing.
Knowing something about it is another.
Unfortunately I think I'm still a bit ignorant on the facts of the EU :-[
Something I'm trying to remedy.
Forceful opinions don't help.
I need to learn about it first.
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Last time I looked you have the same Government as me.
I'm still learning about the EU.
I've not learnt enough yet.
I've got till June.
I can't say I know enough about it yet to consider voting.
Listening to opinions on it, is one thing.
Knowing something about it is another.
Unfortunately I think I'm still a bit ignorant on the facts of the EU :-[
Something I'm trying to remedy.
Forceful opinions don't help.
I need to learn about it first.
So make sure you do learn and learn it well your family/kids/mums/and all, need you to get it right,go back an d search youtube and history double check and then check again.
~TW~
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Rose your bank account could be next
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFdnXga-WXU
~TW~
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So make sure you do learn and learn it well your family/kids/mums/and all, need you to get it right,go back an d search youtube and history double check and then check again.
~TW~
Ah yes, YouTube, that bastion of evidential rigour.
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Rose your bank account could be next
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFdnXga-WXU
~TW~
It could if we left the EU as well.
If it all went badly wrong the government could step in to take whatever steps it thought necessary to protect the national interest.
Voting to leave, doesn't protect us from that.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/land-requisitioned-war/
I think our government took funds off people too, in the past.
It can happen.
Depending on on dire the need is, the government can pass laws that enable to take steps to obtain things.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyneham
Alternatively it can just increase taxes, as needed.
Then it's not called stealing.
But it's still money out of your pocket, which whittles down your savings.
We could get in that state by leaving the EU as much as by staying in.
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It could if we left the EU as well.
If it all went badly wrong the government could step in to take whatever steps it thought necessary to protect the national interest.
Voting to leave, doesn't protect us from that.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/land-requisitioned-war/
I think our government took funds off people too, in the past.
Well Rose my money is in Panama :)
~TW~
It can happen.
Depending on on dire the need is, the government can pass laws that enable to take steps to obtain things.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyneham
Alternatively it can just increase taxes, as needed.
Then it's not called stealing.
But it's still money out of your pocket, which whittles down your savings.
We could get in that state by leaving the EU as much as by staying in.
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You forgot to comment ;D
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You forgot to comment ;D
sorry Panama is where my money is. :)
~TW~
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Rose talking of Banks you should watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAq1q1_swyM
~TW~
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sorry Panama is where my money is. :)
~TW~
:-\
Do you mean this?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/19/panama-papers-us-justice-department-investigation-tax-avoidance
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The trouble is I can see both sides trying to scare people into voting their way :(
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You forgot to comment ;D
I wouldn't worry - the effect is much the same either way.
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I wouldn't worry - the effect is much the same either way.
What a muppet.
~TW~
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What a muppet.
~TW~
Arse.
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I politely took my leaflet from the local Leave campaign.
Had to laugh about page 1. We can spend the money saved on public services.......as if Gove and Johnson are going to do that.
Looking for the cutting immigration bit but of course it went on about getting skilled people from wherever we wanted as if Gove and Johnson aren't going to bring people in who will be satisfied with a lower wage to depress our wages.
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I had the £9,000,000 brochure through my letterbox this morning it hardly hit the ground it's on its way back to number ten all ready.
These politicians the cheek?
ippy
No I have not sent it back. I binned the Ukip brochure.
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I still don't have the brochure. No UKIP brochure either though, like you, I would bin anything that had 'UKIP' on the front so I may have done that.